Building a successful marketing org - Hosted by Alexey Loganchuk of Deep Ocean Partners

[00:00] All right, it’s trying a sec and I think we’re live. Awesome. So, Fan Josh again, thank you so much for making the time to have this conversation. I think it’s been in the making for coming up on six months now.

[00:13] making for coming up on six months now. I’ve really wanted to have this discussion and you guys both have very busy schedule. So, I appreciate you again for this conversation. Now the background just to recap for this

[00:25] the background just to recap for this is that I think there is a ton of is that I think there is a ton of material out there on how you can material out there on how you can optimize kind of your meta ads on how optimize kind of your meta ads on how you can do medium mix modeling better on

[00:37] you can do medium mix modeling better on how you can do this and that. There are how you can do this and that. There are a lot of point problems that have a lot of point problems that have a multitude of point solutions each. But multitude of point solutions each. But if you’re a CEO, if you’re building up

[00:44] if you’re a CEO, if you’re building up one of these companies from scratch and one of these companies from scratch and you’re building organization, you’re you’re building organization, you’re just ripping out your hair because just ripping out your hair because you’re not quite sure if you should be you’re not quite sure if you should be putting together a jigsaw agencies,

[00:53] putting together a jigsaw agencies, helping hiring somebody in house. You’re helping hiring somebody in house. You’re just trying to figure out like what is just trying to figure out like what is the best way to do this in a way that the best way to do this in a way that would just leave money on the table and

[01:00] would just leave money on the table and lead to a lot of waste. It’s far from lead to a lot of waste. It’s far from being science. It’s not even an art. being science. It’s not even an art. It’s just, for lack of a better word, a It’s just, for lack of a better word, a cluster, I think, for a lot of these

[01:08] cluster, I think, for a lot of these folks. and Josh you have these folks. and Josh you have obviously a wealth of experience obviously a wealth of experience particularly around the strategy of particularly around the strategy of building these teams of scaling them of building these teams of scaling them of developing them. So really keen to

[01:19] developing them. So really keen to combine that with bait on your combine that with bait on your experience looking at the data and kind experience looking at the data and kind of the back end the nitty-gritty of how of the back end the nitty-gritty of how these teams end up operating. these teams end up operating. So with that kind of out of the way what

[01:29] So with that kind of out of the way what I want to open up with here is just a I want to open up with here is just a very simple question which is why is very simple question which is why is hiring marketers so hard? I feel like hiring marketers so hard? I feel like it’s one of the highest churning roles

[01:39] it’s one of the highest churning roles in most organizations. Why is it so in most organizations. Why is it so hard to find somebody who you can just hard to find somebody who you can just scale with from, you know, 5 million to scale with from, you know, 5 million to 50? 50? It’s a great question. That’s the

[01:50] It’s a great question. That’s the billion dollar question. Yeah, marketers billion dollar question. Yeah, marketers are hire hard to hire. CFOs are hard to are hire hard to hire. CFOs are hard to hire. You know, chief sales officers are hire. You know, chief sales officers are hard to hire. Great people, you know, hard to hire. Great people, you know, never easy., but great marketers are

[02:01] never easy., but great marketers are rare. I mean, full stop. You’re not rare. I mean, full stop. You’re not just hiring someone to run campaigns. just hiring someone to run campaigns. You’re hiring someone who can think You’re hiring someone who can think crossf functionally, translate brand into functionally, translate brand into revenue, you know, move between creative

[02:15] revenue, you know, move between creative and quantitative worlds and kind of and quantitative worlds and kind of embed deeply across product sales and embed deeply across product sales and ops. It’s kind of a unicorn skill set ops. It’s kind of a unicorn skill set and it’s evolving. You know, you look at and it’s evolving. You know, you look at so I think I think that’s one

[02:27] so I think I think that’s one of the reasons it’s really hard. Yeah. of the reasons it’s really hard. Yeah. Totally. I’m curious actually thinking Totally. I’m curious actually thinking about how you’d actually judge market about how you’d actually judge market performance. So you bring in somebody I performance. So you bring in somebody I think to your point on you know CFOs are

[02:39] think to your point on you know CFOs are hard to hire but if you hire a good CFO hard to hire but if you hire a good CFO you just see that you know your you just see that you know your financial forecasts are being realized financial forecasts are being realized you’re not you know falling way off of

[02:47] you’re not you know falling way off of plan with marketers I feel like it’s plan with marketers I feel like it’s going to be tougher like okay your going to be tougher like okay your performance is same year on year is it performance is same year on year is it because you know things are continuing

[02:56] because you know things are continuing to be well is it because you know you’re to be well is it because you know you’re actually continuing to be subject to the actually continuing to be subject to the same inefficiencies it because you know same inefficiencies it because you know your market is fantastic and the rest of your market is fantastic and the rest of your peers are struggling But you guys

[03:06] your peers are struggling But you guys have been able to keep ship you know have been able to keep ship you know going straight. Just figuring out like going straight. Just figuring out like whether or not a marketer is doing good whether or not a marketer is doing good work I feel like is a pretty difficult work I feel like is a pretty difficult question to answer in its own right. So

[03:16] question to answer in its own right. So curious Josh I’ll start with you and curious Josh I’ll start with you and I think Feifan you had a wealth of I think Feifan you had a wealth of experience looking at these people in experience looking at these people in more granular levels. So we’ll we’ll

[03:23] more granular levels. So we’ll we’ll ask you next but Josh you first. That’s ask you next but Josh you first. That’s another great question., too often another great question., too often marketers are judged purely by lagging marketers are judged purely by lagging KPIs without enough attention to the KPIs without enough attention to the systems and decisions that got them

[03:37] systems and decisions that got them there., great marketing there., great marketing organizations, you know, look both at organizations, you know, look both at inputs and the velocity of learning. You inputs and the velocity of learning. You know, are campaigns being launched with know, are campaigns being launched with discipline? Are we testing and iterating discipline? Are we testing and iterating with intention? I mean, really, are we

[03:51] with intention? I mean, really, are we getting smarter every month? If you look getting smarter every month? If you look at companies like Ciiet Foods that just at companies like Ciiet Foods that just sold to PepsiCo, like they didn’t just sold to PepsiCo, like they didn’t just build a brand, you know, they built build a brand, you know, they built community. Their marketing wasn’t just

[04:00] community. Their marketing wasn’t just about conversations. It was about conversations. It was about cultural connection and that showed up cultural connection and that showed up not only in loyalty, but in how not only in loyalty, but in how retailers rallied around their story. retailers rallied around their story. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m curious on your side when you’re

[04:15] And I’m curious on your side when you’re working with marketers. I’m not sure how working with marketers. I’m not sure how much you’ve interacted marketers versus much you’ve interacted marketers versus seuite but have you been asked by let’s seuite but have you been asked by let’s say management to figure out like is say management to figure out like is this market any good like how do you

[04:24] this market any good like how do you approach figuring this out? approach figuring this out? Yeah I mean marketing and growth is Yeah I mean marketing and growth is always topic number one two and three always topic number one two and three you know and CEOs and founders are you know and CEOs and founders are constantly losing sleep over whether or

[04:38] constantly losing sleep over whether or not my marketing leader and my marketing not my marketing leader and my marketing team is performing. And I think usually team is performing. And I think usually what I tell them is that what I tell them is that what typically even more sophisticated typically even more sophisticated organizations may lack is a unified

[04:53] organizations may lack is a unified decision-m framework that is kind of decision-m framework that is kind of implemented by the executive team first implemented by the executive team first so that there is clarity on what success so that there is clarity on what success looks like as a marketer in a company. M looks like as a marketer in a company. M so that’s a lot of foundational work

[05:07] so that’s a lot of foundational work from a data and organizational from a data and organizational perspective to be like here are the KPIs perspective to be like here are the KPIs that we care about and this is how it’s that we care about and this is how it’s calculated and we’re just all going to calculated and we’re just all going to align on that. So if that KPI moves up

[05:20] align on that. So if that KPI moves up then you’re doing well right? If it’s then you’re doing well right? If it’s moving down then you’re not. And I think moving down then you’re not. And I think a lot of the CEOs are waiting for a lot of the CEOs are waiting for a marketer to come to them and be like,

[05:28] marketer to come to them and be like, “Okay, we should look at this, this, and “Okay, we should look at this, this, and this, and because it’s looking good, this, and because it’s looking good, right?” And that’s going to kind of right?” And that’s going to kind of create perverse incentives to bias create perverse incentives to bias towards reporting interfaces that is

[05:40] towards reporting interfaces that is kind of saying positive things, but of kind of saying positive things, but of course, your profit somehow down course, your profit somehow down anyways, even though the anyways, even though the Facebook rorowass is somehow growing, Facebook rorowass is somehow growing, right? So if you don’t have clarity from

[05:52] right? So if you don’t have clarity from a leadership perspective to the a leadership perspective to the marketing team on like no we don’t I marketing team on like no we don’t I don’t care about that right I care about don’t care about that right I care about profit or topline or LTV and that’s your profit or topline or LTV and that’s your job to grow then it becomes a lot more a

[06:06] job to grow then it becomes a lot more a lot less ambiguous in terms of why am I lot less ambiguous in terms of why am I doing well or am I not doing well you doing well or am I not doing well you know just double click there really know just double click there really quick so in terms of like what are the

[06:16] quick so in terms of like what are the best metrics to really look app. best metrics to really look app., rorows obviously is not it. Is it, rorows obviously is not it. Is it new customers?, you know, full new customers?, you know, full blended CAC, is it CAC payback? Do you blended CAC, is it CAC payback? Do you have any advice when people ask you like

[06:30] have any advice when people ask you like what should these metrics be for us? what should these metrics be for us? Yeah, it really depends on the actual Yeah, it really depends on the actual mechanics of the business and the stage, mechanics of the business and the stage, right? So, we typically work with right? So, we typically work with businesses that have between 20 to,

[06:43] businesses that have between 20 to, let’s say, half a billion dollars in let’s say, half a billion dollars in annual sales. That’s very different than annual sales. That’s very different than a brand starting up with, you know, on a brand starting up with, you know, on track to hit a million, right?, and track to hit a million, right?, and then the other thing is around your

[06:55] then the other thing is around your AOV, right? So, if you have a low AOV, right? So, if you have a low AOV product, let’s say it’s CPG,, then product, let’s say it’s CPG,, then you’re not always going to be profitable you’re not always going to be profitable on your first order. So, that’s a LTV

[07:04] on your first order. So, that’s a LTV play. But, I come from a world where we play. But, I come from a world where we sold I sold mattresses and we got all of sold I sold mattresses and we got all of our LTV in the first order. So that’s a our LTV in the first order. So that’s a very different that’s a very

[07:16] very different that’s a very different approach in terms of what different approach in terms of what you’re going to have to look at, you’re going to have to look at, you know. So it really kind of depends. Got know. So it really kind of depends. Got it. Josh, one more thing is your camera it. Josh, one more thing is your camera keeps panning left and right. Is there a

[07:25] keeps panning left and right. Is there a way to turn that off? I think I’m way to turn that off? I think I’m getting a little seasick. getting a little seasick. My camera’s panning. Yeah. My camera’s panning. Yeah. I don’t know what’s doing that. Huh. This is the first time on this platform. Let me see. platform. Let me see. I was like, that’s a cabin. That is a

[07:43] I was like, that’s a cabin. That is a very impressive. No, I’m not on a boat. very impressive. No, I’m not on a boat. I’m I’m on land. I wonder what I think I’m I’m on land. I wonder what I think it might be doing facial tracking. it might be doing facial tracking., and it’s getting confused.

[07:54], and it’s getting confused. I don’t think we actually have facial I don’t think we actually have facial tracking in the platform as a feature, tracking in the platform as a feature, though. I think it might be hardware. though. I think it might be hardware. I don’t know to be honest. You might I don’t know to be honest. You might have to just move me to audio. All

[08:07] have to just move me to audio. All right., I mean, yeah, I honestly I’ve right., I mean, yeah, I honestly I’ve never been on this platform before, but never been on this platform before, but it is doing it on its own. it is doing it on its own. All right. All right. Yeah, good stuff., I don’t know.

[08:21] Yeah, good stuff., I don’t know. Actually, I have no idea. I’ll go into Actually, I have no idea. I’ll go into settings again, but yeah, it’s not like settings again, but yeah, it’s not like Huh. That’s bizarre., I guess maybe. Huh. That’s bizarre., I guess maybe. Did that fix it? I think so. Yeah. Oh,

[08:31] Did that fix it? I think so. Yeah. Oh, no. It’s still moving. Jeez, that’s so no. It’s still moving. Jeez, that’s so weird. Anyway, I don’t know. All good. weird. Anyway, I don’t know. All good. All good. All good., I guess maybe building on that,,, I guess maybe building on that,, I think there is a variety of

[08:43] I think there is a variety of criteria that apply depending on whether criteria that apply depending on whether you’re talking about somebody who’s in you’re talking about somebody who’s in the trenches and doing campaigns the trenches and doing campaigns themselves or somebody who’s more CMO themselves or somebody who’s more CMO suite., I’m curious, Josh, from

[08:52] suite., I’m curious, Josh, from your perspective, how do the your perspective, how do the characteristics, the traits of a characteristics, the traits of a successful marketer change as you go up successful marketer change as you go up in seniority?, what is a good kind of in seniority?, what is a good kind of senior marketer versus what is a good

[09:05] senior marketer versus what is a good junior? junior? yeah. yeah. I think I think like you kind of think about scale. I like you kind of think about scale. I mean what you this is for any function mean what you this is for any function not just marketing. What you need to get not just marketing. What you need to get to a million-doll business is much

[09:25] to a million-doll business is much different than what you need to get to a different than what you need to get to a $10 million business. And what you need $10 million business. And what you need from a to get to $10 million business is from a to get to $10 million business is very often uniquely different than to

[09:33] very often uniquely different than to get to 50 and then to get to 200. So get to 50 and then to get to 200. So there’s very often you see like there’s very often you see like changeover in teams, just skill sets. changeover in teams, just skill sets. People love what they do at that People love what they do at that specific point., and I think this is

[09:42] specific point., and I think this is all about scaling your marketing team. all about scaling your marketing team., and you have to be really honest, and you have to be really honest about what people are good at and where about what people are good at and where they love to spend the time and kind of

[09:52] they love to spend the time and kind of their zone of genius. A lot of people their zone of genius. A lot of people say, “Oh, you know, I was with I was say, “Oh, you know, I was with I was with Vital Proteins or I was with O with Vital Proteins or I was with O Positive or I was with this massive

[09:59] Positive or I was with this massive company and I did all these things.” company and I did all these things.” Like what did you actually do? What do Like what did you actually do? What do you love to do? And I think from a you love to do? And I think from a marketing team, you kind of scale in

[10:08] marketing team, you kind of scale in proportion to your complexity, not your proportion to your complexity, not your ambition. It’s like when the business ambition. It’s like when the business gets noisier, more fragmented, a little gets noisier, more fragmented, a little bit more nuanced, that’s when you scale, bit more nuanced, that’s when you scale, not because you raise a series B and

[10:20] not because you raise a series B and feel like you should. Yeah. And so feel like you should. Yeah. And so that’s very, you know, like if you look that’s very, you know, like if you look at like a vital proteins and, you know, at like a vital proteins and, you know, Kurt was a front row seat there and is a

[10:29] Kurt was a front row seat there and is a very close personal friend. you know, very close personal friend. you know, they stayed super lean early on and only they stayed super lean early on and only started laying in functional depth like started laying in functional depth like influencer content performance. Once influencer content performance. Once their DTOC and retail flywheels were

[10:43] their DTOC and retail flywheels were really spinning, you know, yeah, it’s really spinning, you know, yeah, it’s like if you look at like Ghost Energy, like if you look at like Ghost Energy, which we’re a part of,, you know, which we’re a part of,, you know, they focused on building a lifestyle they focused on building a lifestyle brand rooted in authenticity and then

[10:53] brand rooted in authenticity and then they started scaling up marketing talent they started scaling up marketing talent when the market, not just their budget, when the market, not just their budget, demanded it. So there’s nuances, you demanded it. So there’s nuances, you know, based on the business. There’s not know, based on the business. There’s not a playbook there. People think there’s a

[11:03] a playbook there. People think there’s a playbook just based on like based on a playbook just based on like based on a fundamental like fund raise and that’s fundamental like fund raise and that’s not every company isn’t at the same not every company isn’t at the same stage based on the fund raise and when stage based on the fund raise and when you actually bring capital in. So you

[11:15] you actually bring capital in. So you know I think that requires a deeper dive know I think that requires a deeper dive based on skill sets within the team what based on skill sets within the team what the founding team has what the new hired the founding team has what the new hired seuite team has and you really have to

[11:23] seuite team has and you really have to you really have to build upon that. you really have to build upon that. Yeah., one I guess overarching Yeah., one I guess overarching subject when you’re talking about subject when you’re talking about building organization is resourcing. building organization is resourcing., so I would imagine one of the

[11:35], so I would imagine one of the biggest frustrations if you’re in biggest frustrations if you’re in marketing is being underresourced and marketing is being underresourced and not having the ability to put out not having the ability to put out content to do the kind of brand building content to do the kind of brand building work you want to be doing., but I’m

[11:43] work you want to be doing., but I’m kind of curious again looking at it from kind of curious again looking at it from the perspective of a CEO. How do you the perspective of a CEO. How do you balance it? How do you balance, you balance it? How do you balance, you know, optimizing bottom of funnel,

[11:50] know, optimizing bottom of funnel, trying to close people versus building a trying to close people versus building a more holistic brand and investing into more holistic brand and investing into that?, what are the mental models do that?, what are the mental models do you typically use for you typically use for well? Great. The couple that’s a couple

[12:03] well? Great. The couple that’s a couple different questions I think if I’m different questions I think if I’m attacking this appropriately. I mean, attacking this appropriately. I mean, let me know if I am. So, a lot of times let me know if I am. So, a lot of times I don’t, but, you know, kind of how

[12:11] I don’t, but, you know, kind of how to split resources between top of to split resources between top of funnel, bottom of funnel. I mean, this funnel, bottom of funnel. I mean, this is really where strategic sequencing is really where strategic sequencing really matters. You know, if you’re really matters. You know, if you’re early stage or launching a new category,

[12:22] early stage or launching a new category, you’ll likely overindex on top of you’ll likely overindex on top of funnel, but once there’s traction, funnel, but once there’s traction, you know, a lot of brands underinvest in you know, a lot of brands underinvest in bottom of funnel, the stuff that bottom of funnel, the stuff that actually converts attention into

[12:33] actually converts attention into dollars. So, it’s really understanding dollars. So, it’s really understanding your funnel. And this is I mean this is your funnel. And this is I mean this is basic fundamental stuff., right? But basic fundamental stuff., right? But so that’s maybe one part of the question so that’s maybe one part of the question and

[12:45] and then as it relates to resourcing and then as it relates to resourcing and feel free to stop me anytime. no feel free to stop me anytime. no that’s great. You know I think that’s great. You know I think resourcing internally externally. My resourcing internally externally. My feeling is and what I’ve seen work this feeling is and what I’ve seen work this is only an experience share because I

[12:57] is only an experience share because I would never say what someone should do would never say what someone should do or should not do because everyone you or should not do because everyone you know builds a company that you know kind know builds a company that you know kind of fits their DNA. but typically you of fits their DNA. but typically you want to inhouse what’s core to your

[13:09] want to inhouse what’s core to your brand DNA. you know your voice, your brand DNA. you know your voice, your values, your customer understanding. values, your customer understanding. You outsource executional tasks until You outsource executional tasks until they become way too become way too strategic where you need to own them strategic where you need to own them internally. And some of those things you

[13:28] internally. And some of those things you keep externally forever and that’s keep externally forever and that’s amazing. but that’s where you have to amazing. but that’s where you have to really be honest with yourself, you really be honest with yourself, you know. your voice, your values, your know. your voice, your values, your customer and then outsourcing all the

[13:40] customer and then outsourcing all the things that can make you much more things that can make you much more efficient as a business until you got efficient as a business until you got to bring it in house. I’m curious, what to bring it in house. I’m curious, what do you consider strategic? Like what is do you consider strategic? Like what is what is what makes a certain

[13:53] what is what makes a certain functional set of capabilities functional set of capabilities strategic to a brand strategic to a brand within this framework? within this framework? are strategic. I mean, you know, it’s are strategic. I mean, you know, it’s really all about like really all about like owning functions or the most

[14:10] owning functions or the most important areas of your business, right? important areas of your business, right? Like you I don’t think you ever want to, Like you I don’t think you ever want to, you know, you know, outsource the most important pieces of a outsource the most important pieces of a specific function in your business. If

[14:23] specific function in your business. If you truly want someone to you truly want someone to eat, drink, and you know, sleep on this eat, drink, and you know, sleep on this 24 hours a day, you know, there’s 24 hours a day, you know, there’s certain things that just constantly certain things that just constantly require like full

[14:37] require like full attention, head space, and so it really attention, head space, and so it really it depends on the organization, it depends on the organization, honestly. I mean, you know, I’d love, honestly. I mean, you know, I’d love, you know, to get feedback, you know, on you know, to get feedback, you know, on this panel about that. You know, what

[14:48] this panel about that. You know, what you see is being strategic, but a lot of you see is being strategic, but a lot of times I see I see strategic stuff is times I see I see strategic stuff is like your values, your voice, like your values, your voice, and like real understanding of your

[14:57] and like real understanding of your customer is so important. in P&L customer is so important. in P&L management you know the way you manage management you know the way you manage your budgets the way your dollars flow your budgets the way your dollars flow you know financial discipline fiscal you know financial discipline fiscal discipline like creating the

[15:10] discipline like creating the architecture of your marketing function architecture of your marketing function as a business you know there are as a business you know there are pieces you can outsource but you need pieces you can outsource but you need architects that are so accountable and architects that are so accountable and so focused on delivering based on the

[15:23] so focused on delivering based on the principles of your business you know you principles of your business you know you know first principles and sales, know first principles and sales, marketing, finance, operations where marketing, finance, operations where those people, you know, are stewards for those people, you know, are stewards for you because as a CEO, the most important

[15:37] you because as a CEO, the most important thing you need to do is hire the right thing you need to do is hire the right people around you so you can make people around you so you can make yourself replaceable, right? I mean, yourself replaceable, right? I mean, that’s what great CEOs do. So, you think that’s what great CEOs do. So, you think about those important functions in each

[15:47] about those important functions in each specific area and say, who’s going to specific area and say, who’s going to own that? And that person has to do own that? And that person has to do that. That has to be their life, the one that. That has to be their life, the one of the most important things to them.

[15:53] of the most important things to them. Yeah, it’s very helpful. Feifan, sorry. Yeah, it’s very helpful. Feifan, sorry., I wanted to kind of complete that, I wanted to kind of complete that arc of thought with Josh, but that arc of thought with Josh, but really keen to get back to you on

[16:02] really keen to get back to you on this., so in terms of first of all this., so in terms of first of all optimizing bottom funnel, top funnel optimizing bottom funnel, top funnel work content investments. I’m curious work content investments. I’m curious from a more datadriven perspective, from a more datadriven perspective, how do you think about this when

[16:14] how do you think about this when talking to brands and advising? when talking to brands and advising? Totally. Yeah, I think the original sin Totally. Yeah, I think the original sin would be trying to be good at would be trying to be good at everything. You know, I think oftentimes everything. You know, I think oftentimes brands don’t understand what their true

[16:26] brands don’t understand what their true differentiators are and how to sort of differentiators are and how to sort of double down on those, you know, so I double down on those, you know, so I think just to give a few examples, we’ve think just to give a few examples, we’ve worked with Ollipop from the very early worked with Ollipop from the very early days back in

[16:37] days back in 2020 and you know that if you’re 2020 and you know that if you’re optimizing for paid marketing and direct optimizing for paid marketing and direct response ads, you know, sodas and drinks response ads, you know, sodas and drinks are infamously bad for DTOC. are infamously bad for DTOC. So that would have that tanked many

[16:52] So that would have that tanked many beverage brands that we’ve that we’ve beverage brands that we’ve that we’ve seen and we’ve worked with. seen and we’ve worked with. ultimately the strategic ultimately the strategic differentiation is retail penetration differentiation is retail penetration and brand building and fandom building and brand building and fandom building right that is a very different set of

[17:08] right that is a very different set of capabilities than a large DTOC brand capabilities than a large DTOC brand that you know is basically that you know is basically differentiated on their ability to look differentiated on their ability to look at data and spend paid marketing dollars at data and spend paid marketing dollars very confidently which would be like

[17:22] very confidently which would be like basically that was the core competency basically that was the core competency of my previous company, a resident home. of my previous company, a resident home. That’s what our advantage was we That’s what our advantage was we were the most confident in just dumping were the most confident in just dumping dollars into the right channels and

[17:36] dollars into the right channels and being profitable on the other side. And being profitable on the other side. And our competitors were not just because our competitors were not just because they don’t have their math sort of they don’t have their math sort of worked out internally, right? They don’t worked out internally, right? They don’t have their KPIs mapped out internally

[17:46] have their KPIs mapped out internally and that’s not clear to their internal and that’s not clear to their internal folks what actually success looks like. folks what actually success looks like., so you know, we didn’t really care, so you know, we didn’t really care about brand until well into the nine about brand until well into the nine figures in sales and then you get to

[18:00] figures in sales and then you get to a certain point where you do get to sort a certain point where you do get to sort of do things like that. So focus and of do things like that. So focus and understanding where your levers are and understanding where your levers are and just tripling down on that is ultimately

[18:10] just tripling down on that is ultimately what’s going to drive success. what’s going to drive success. But how do you figure that out? I mean But how do you figure that out? I mean you’re a young brand. I mean even when you’re a young brand. I mean even when you’re getting into eight when you’re getting into eight figures a lot of time these brands

[18:20] figures a lot of time these brands they are very capital constrainted. I they are very capital constrainted. I think the days of DDC brands consumer think the days of DDC brands consumer brands being bankrolled by VCs in a brands being bankrolled by VCs in a large scale at this point largely gone. large scale at this point largely gone. So they have to be very thoughtful to

[18:32] So they have to be very thoughtful to every dollar you spend. So let’s say every dollar you spend. So let’s say you’re investing into a bottom of you’re investing into a bottom of funnel and you’re finding that just the funnel and you’re finding that just the economics are difficult., I think at economics are difficult., I think at that point in time to if you’re the CEO

[18:43] that point in time to if you’re the CEO to say, you know what, we need to say, you know what, we need to instead try investing in a brand. That’s instead try investing in a brand. That’s not something you can really try in like not something you can really try in like a week or even a month. I feel like a

[18:51] a week or even a month. I feel like a lot of that kind of work, it takes a lot of that kind of work, it takes a while. It’s kind of like SEO. It takes a while. It’s kind of like SEO. It takes a while to really take off. How do you while to really take off. How do you even think about like mentally

[18:59] even think about like mentally approaching that? And this is a question approaching that? And this is a question for you both., how do you think about for you both., how do you think about like figure again what is the right what like figure again what is the right what is that optimal mix?, I hear you

[19:08] what is that optimal mix?, I hear you on kind of what worked very well for on kind of what worked very well for companies that you know were more bottom companies that you know were more bottom funnel focused, top of funnel focused, funnel focused, top of funnel focused, but how do you find what is the optimal

[19:15] but how do you find what is the optimal point for your brand in particular? Josh, you want to go first? Go for it. You take it first. All right., yeah. You take it first. All right., yeah. I mean, again, I think the answer is it I mean, again, I think the answer is it depends because I think oftent times the

[19:31] depends because I think oftent times the leadership has to be able to get the leadership has to be able to get honest about why are people not buying, honest about why are people not buying, right? right? Is it actually the marketing conversion Is it actually the marketing conversion machine that’s broken, the messaging? Or machine that’s broken, the messaging? Or is it actually the product? Is it the

[19:45] is it actually the product? Is it the pricing? You know, is it the discounting pricing? You know, is it the discounting strategies? Is it your inability to strategies? Is it your inability to compare yourself properly with your compare yourself properly with your competitors, right? Without truly competitors, right? Without truly understanding what is understanding what is actually causing a lack of conversion,

[20:01] actually causing a lack of conversion, right? Or it could just be unit right? Or it could just be unit economics, right? And that means you economics, right? And that means you kind of have, you know, if you kind of kind of have, you know, if you kind of have that insight, that means you have that insight, that means you have to go back a lot farther on the drawing

[20:12] to go back a lot farther on the drawing board than, you know, just rejiggering your than, you know, just rejiggering your marketing strategy. But let’s just marketing strategy. But let’s just assume that the product and price and assume that the product and price and everything is good, but you’re not doing everything is good, but you’re not doing it profitably, then that’s probably a

[20:27] it profitably, then that’s probably a data problem, right? So that’s kind of data problem, right? So that’s kind of you know with the recent kind of you know with the recent kind of earnings call from solo brands you know earnings call from solo brands you know that’s one of their issues was they that’s one of their issues was they didn’t have a unified decision-making

[20:42] didn’t have a unified decision-making framework across all their brands to framework across all their brands to properly kind of understand properly kind of understand profitability and that’s like right but profitability and that’s like right but I think they have certain amount of I think they have certain amount of confidence that the products that confidence that the products that they’re producing because they

[20:54] they’re producing because they have pretty decent scale is like has a have pretty decent scale is like has a place in the right and that it’ll place in the right and that it’ll move if you just fix the company. and move if you just fix the company. and that becomes a whole other sort of

[21:05] that becomes a whole other sort of situation because you know Solo actually situation because you know Solo actually tried both very focused on performance tried both very focused on performance marketing discounting strategy but they marketing discounting strategy but they were not tracking the ROI on the were not tracking the ROI on the discounting strategy. they’re not

[21:15] discounting strategy. they’re not tracking the attribution and then they tracking the attribution and then they tried the brand campaign with tried the brand campaign with Snoop Dogg which actually you know made Snoop Dogg which actually you know made a lot of positive waves but even then a lot of positive waves but even then they had no idea how profitable or

[21:27] they had no idea how profitable or whether or not it was successful so it’s whether or not it was successful so it’s not repeatable in that case right not repeatable in that case right so maybe so maybe Joe please you go first I’ll ask so my Joe please you go first I’ll ask so my question actually was going to be maybe

[21:40] question actually was going to be maybe just to shift angle here a little just to shift angle here a little bit I bit I There is one modality where a There is one modality where a company that is really struggling that company that is really struggling that is really you know hurting is thinking is really you know hurting is thinking about you know what can we do better to

[21:51] about you know what can we do better to know got a business a modality that I’m know got a business a modality that I’m also thinking about is one where also thinking about is one where companies doing okay they’re they’re companies doing okay they’re they’re growing a bit they’re making some growing a bit they’re making some money but they’re trying to figure out

[22:00] money but they’re trying to figure out like are we in an upload point or do we like are we in an upload point or do we need to like go out and try need to like go out and try something as fundamental as you know something as fundamental as you know changing this like top bottom funnel

[22:08] changing this like top bottom funnel split. split. I’m curious again thinking through I’m curious again thinking through just broad mental models how you would just broad mental models how you would think about directing a brand that is doing about directing a brand that is doing okay. how do you help them understand okay. how do you help them understand whether and what they should be looking

[22:24] whether and what they should be looking to improve? Well, I mean if there’s one to improve? Well, I mean if there’s one pattern I’ve seen across the best pattern I’ve seen across the best marketing organizations, it’s marketing organizations, it’s discipline. They don’t they don’t discipline. They don’t they don’t just chase growth. They sequence just chase growth. They sequence it. You know, they know what to own. you

[22:37] it. You know, they know what to own. you know what to test, when to scale, when know what to test, when to scale, when to pause. Yeah. And they embed marketing to pause. Yeah. And they embed marketing across the whole org. It’s not like a across the whole org. It’s not like a silo. It’s a strategic driver of clarity

[22:49] silo. It’s a strategic driver of clarity within the organization. within the organization. So very often if you’re blaming on a So very often if you’re blaming on a specific, you know, if it’s a specific, you know, if it’s a specific funnel issue, then it can very often be funnel issue, then it can very often be much more rooted in the organization

[23:02] much more rooted in the organization strategic initiatives. And so yeah, I strategic initiatives. And so yeah, I think that you know making sure that you think that you know making sure that you have crossf functional collaboration is have crossf functional collaboration is critically important. Pause pull back critically important. Pause pull back you know because one thing is connected

[23:13] you know because one thing is connected to the next you know and it’s top of to the next you know and it’s top of funnel might be correlated to their funnel might be correlated to their content strategy correlated to their content strategy correlated to their brand mission correlated to their brand mission correlated to their repackaging correlated to the new price

[23:23] repackaging correlated to the new price point. So there’s so much built into it. point. So there’s so much built into it. So the best organizations don’t look So the best organizations don’t look at as marketing as being a silo you know at as marketing as being a silo you know it’s fully integrated into the org which

[23:36] it’s fully integrated into the org which requires deep cleansing work. requires deep cleansing work. Yeah and also I’d imagine like both of Yeah and also I’d imagine like both of you have mentioned financial planning you have mentioned financial planning being a pretty important part of being a pretty important part of effective marketing strategy. I feel

[23:50] effective marketing strategy. I feel like a lot of CFOs that can be actually like a lot of CFOs that can be actually a very difficult battle to fight. a very difficult battle to fight. Like there’s actually a battle that CFOs Like there’s actually a battle that CFOs fight with marketers. I’m not

[23:59] fight with marketers. I’m not quite sure how that comes about, but quite sure how that comes about, but yeah, that to me should be yeah, that to me should be something that’s table stakes, you know, something that’s table stakes, you know, in terms of basics. and for some in terms of basics. and for some reason that’s an area where I’ve seen a

[24:08] reason that’s an area where I’ve seen a lot of brands really struggle. It you lot of brands really struggle. It you know, if a CFO is battling with a head know, if a CFO is battling with a head of marketing, the CEO has not set the of marketing, the CEO has not set the stage appropriately. They are partners.

[24:18] stage appropriately. They are partners. They are they are locked They are they are locked in arms. They are not they need to be on in arms. They are not they need to be on the same side of the table. If any the same side of the table. If any function of the business is battling

[24:28] function of the business is battling with another function of the business, with another function of the business, you have a dysfunctional business. you have a dysfunctional business. Get on the same side of the table and Get on the same side of the table and drive growth together and plan together. drive growth together and plan together. That’s just a fundamental leadership

[24:39] That’s just a fundamental leadership flaw to be honest. And that’s not flaw to be honest. And that’s not pointing to one specific organization pointing to one specific organization because there’s lots of them and because there’s lots of them and organizations learn. That’s where you organizations learn. That’s where you bring in a coaching practice. Yeah. To bring in a coaching practice. Yeah. To really think about leveling up

[24:50] really think about leveling up initiatives as an organization because initiatives as an organization because the closer they by the way this is all the closer they by the way this is all happening so fast. The transformation of happening so fast. The transformation of these organizations is like nothing these organizations is like nothing we’ve ever se we’re we through AI we are

[25:01] we’ve ever se we’re we through AI we are transforming organizations and if transforming organizations and if finance and marketing and sales and finance and marketing and sales and operations and supply chain and human operations and supply chain and human resources are not connected these resources are not connected these businesses will sink and they’ll be

[25:12] businesses will sink and they’ll be operating the way they were not five operating the way they were not five years ago six months ago. So the future years ago six months ago. So the future is faster than you think and therefore is faster than you think and therefore they all need to be leveling up together they all need to be leveling up together to say what’s the most important thing

[25:25] to say what’s the most important thing to the organization? How can we support to the organization? How can we support each other? And a big part of that is each other? And a big part of that is fiscal responsibility. fiscal responsibility. Yeah. One of the things that’s a bit of Yeah. One of the things that’s a bit of a tangent, I’m sorry, but I’ve seen a

[25:35] a tangent, I’m sorry, but I’ve seen a number of companies now that have gotten number of companies now that have gotten to, you know, some level of success. to, you know, some level of success. They’re in the tens of millions of They’re in the tens of millions of dollars in terms of revenue. they dollars in terms of revenue. they have a visionary founder who’s very

[25:43] have a visionary founder who’s very much a product person. fantastic much a product person. fantastic product, good market, product market product, good market, product market fit, but you start seeing these fit, but you start seeing these frictions where which I think mostly frictions where which I think mostly boiled down to the product focused boiled down to the product focused founder just wanted to say like okay

[25:55] founder just wanted to say like okay there’s my marketing like you do your there’s my marketing like you do your thing and here’s my fin organization you thing and here’s my fin organization you guys do your thing and just like they guys do your thing and just like they really want to just put this into their really want to just put this into their silos and go back to thinking about how

[26:04] silos and go back to thinking about how do I keep building better do I keep building better product and I guess in situations like product and I guess in situations like one of the questions I would have would one of the questions I would have would be I mean is it just coaching be I mean is it just coaching is would a COO be an appropriate kind of

[26:17] is would a COO be an appropriate kind of person to step in with the CO? Does it person to step in with the CO? Does it really have to go up to the very top? really have to go up to the very top? Does the CEO have to be the one who’s Does the CEO have to be the one who’s implementing and overseeing this cross

[26:25] implementing and overseeing this cross collaboration? Well, just think about collaboration? Well, just think about it. Like at the end of the day, if a it. Like at the end of the day, if a company doesn’t work, whose fault is it? company doesn’t work, whose fault is it? It’s the CEO’s fault, right? You can It’s the CEO’s fault, right? You can point fingers all day you want, but you

[26:37] point fingers all day you want, but you have the wrong people in the wrong seat have the wrong people in the wrong seat with the wrong coaching in the right with the wrong coaching in the right point way, but it’s your organization. point way, but it’s your organization. it’s your job. So yeah, if you don’t it’s your job. So yeah, if you don’t rally the troops and say like I have

[26:48] rally the troops and say like I have five or six functions or direct reports five or six functions or direct reports in my organization that I’m responsible in my organization that I’m responsible for ensuring they have all of the for ensuring they have all of the strategic support and guidance they need strategic support and guidance they need to be successful because one here’s one

[27:01] to be successful because one here’s one thing that’s for sure. They’ve never thing that’s for sure. They’ve never done this job before. They might have done this job before. They might have done this job in a different done this job in a different organization but they’ve never done this organization but they’ve never done this specific job today in this fast changing

[27:11] specific job today in this fast changing environment. Yeah. And so if you don’t environment. Yeah. And so if you don’t lean in to support them and bring in lean in to support them and bring in coaching or executive leadership kind of coaching or executive leadership kind of advisory like groups, cohorts to work advisory like groups, cohorts to work through these challenges, you’re just

[27:25] through these challenges, you’re just expecting one person or two people to expecting one person or two people to figure out the problems of the business figure out the problems of the business together without including everyone together without including everyone else. It’s critically important to the else. It’s critically important to the business. So yeah, I think it’s 101, you

[27:36] business. So yeah, I think it’s 101, you know, and I think it’s like what I know, and I think it’s like what I again like the best CEOs, whether they’re like the best CEOs, whether they’re founders or hired CEOs that come in, you founders or hired CEOs that come in, you know, at the next chapter, they’re the

[27:50] know, at the next chapter, they’re the ones that ask for help. The best ones that ask for help. The best executives are the ones that ask for executives are the ones that ask for help. Those that think they have it all help. Those that think they have it all figured out are working solo. It’s really re

[28:03] out are working solo. It’s really re Yeah. It’s really not as productive. Yeah. It’s really not as productive. Yeah. Yeah. In a team environment Yeah. Yeah. In a team environment perspective. Yeah. It’s really helpful perspective. Yeah. It’s really helpful perspective I think. to just go down perspective I think. to just go down this tangent one more step coaching. you

[28:15] this tangent one more step coaching. you have any coaching practices you can have any coaching practices you can recommend? like any tips on how recommend? like any tips on how to approach coaching? Because it does to approach coaching? Because it does seem to be like I would love to in the seem to be like I would love to in the cases of these like product driven

[28:24] cases of these like product driven brands that we talked to, we’ve brands that we talked to, we’ve spoken with, you know, be like, “Hey, spoken with, you know, be like, “Hey, you should really consider bringing you should really consider bringing somebody on, but without more somebody on, but without more immediately actionable stuff like, hey,

[28:33] immediately actionable stuff like, hey, email this person and set up a session.” email this person and set up a session.” I feel like a lot of my advice would I feel like a lot of my advice would be falling on deaf ears. So like to be falling on deaf ears. So like to clarify, you mean coaching advice as far

[28:43] clarify, you mean coaching advice as far as structures to use to as structures to use to taching coaching firms? Coaching firms. taching coaching firms? Coaching firms. Yeah, there’s some great ones. We’re Yeah, there’s some great ones. We’re we’re working with quite a few. I mean, we’re working with quite a few. I mean, we’re we’re yeah, there’s some

[28:55] we’re we’re yeah, there’s some excellent ones. We have one for our excellent ones. We have one for our organ for one of my organizations. organ for one of my organizations. there’s a there’s a guy named Charlie there’s a there’s a guy named Charlie Jones who’s amazing. he works with a Jones who’s amazing. he works with a bunch of founders. he probably works

[29:05] bunch of founders. he probably works with 15 20 clients of ours. he’s with 15 20 clients of ours. he’s fantastic. we’re probably going to fantastic. we’re probably going to end up putting a little practice in end up putting a little practice in place too, working with guys like place too, working with guys like Charlie, just because it’s it’s it’s

[29:17] Charlie, just because it’s it’s it’s arguably the most important way to level arguably the most important way to level up, you know, you know, and I can up, you know, you know, and I can share more with you offline, too, like share more with you offline, too, like some great some great but Charlie comes to mind. He’s

[29:29] but Charlie comes to mind. He’s fantastic. we use a gentleman in our fantastic. we use a gentleman in our organization at Force called Asa organization at Force called Asa Hoffman, but I work with Asa and Hoffman, but I work with Asa and Charlie. I have two different coaches. Charlie. I have two different coaches. yeah just for different areas of

[29:40] yeah just for different areas of life. So and I also think like if life. So and I also think like if you’re a founder or not just founder, if you’re a founder or not just founder, if you’re a CEO and you have a company you’re a CEO and you have a company that’s doing over, you know, 20 25

[29:51] that’s doing over, you know, 20 25 million bucks a year, you know, or million bucks a year, you know, or you’re, you know, your valuation you’re, you know, your valuation based on your most recent fund raise is, based on your most recent fund raise is, you know, 25 million and you have at you know, 25 million and you have at least like two and a half million bucks

[30:02] least like two and a half million bucks in payroll and 25 employees, you should in payroll and 25 employees, you should look at joining YPO., and YPO is look at joining YPO., and YPO is amazing. And YPO is an incredible cohort amazing. And YPO is an incredible cohort of community support for executive of community support for executive leaders to then lean in and become

[30:14] leaders to then lean in and become better coaches for their teams. And it’s better coaches for their teams. And it’s not a country club. It’s a club of not a country club. It’s a club of professional leadership advancement. And professional leadership advancement. And it’s awesome. And so there’s a lot of it’s awesome. And so there’s a lot of things to tap into. And everyone’s so

[30:26] things to tap into. And everyone’s so busy building their products and going busy building their products and going to trade shows and, you know, they’re to trade shows and, you know, they’re like, “Oh, how could I ever find the like, “Oh, how could I ever find the time? I have no time.” It’s like, make time? I have no time.” It’s like, make the time. you know, if you don’t make

[30:34] the time. you know, if you don’t make the time to go to the gym and you don’t the time to go to the gym and you don’t make the time to meditate or eat healthy make the time to meditate or eat healthy or coach yourself, you’re gonna end up or coach yourself, you’re gonna end up spiraling. And so, it’s really

[30:42] spiraling. And so, it’s really important. These are these are important. These are these are marathons. These are not sprints. So, marathons. These are not sprints. So, definitely, you know, and again, these definitely, you know, and again, these are things I love to talk about. We’re are things I love to talk about. We’re building a whole transformation division

[30:52] building a whole transformation division leveraging AI and high level human touch leveraging AI and high level human touch organization with a new CEO we just organization with a new CEO we just hired and it’s it’s awesome, man. I mean hired and it’s it’s awesome, man. I mean but these are the things you know is but these are the things you know is so much of the work becomes commoditized

[31:04] so much of the work becomes commoditized and so much of the operational and so much of the operational executional work that used to take us executional work that used to take us hours can take us minutes and things hours can take us minutes and things that used to take eight weeks can take that used to take eight weeks can take eight hours. Where do you spend your

[31:14] eight hours. Where do you spend your time? You spend your time leveling up time? You spend your time leveling up the people around you not getting caught the people around you not getting caught in your operational you were in your operational you were doing six months ago because those days doing six months ago because those days are done. Yeah, I think so. The

[31:27] are done. Yeah, I think so. The ongoing transformation within marketing ongoing transformation within marketing as an industry, I think it’s something as an industry, I think it’s something we should definitely speak to next., we should definitely speak to next., but I just want to say that I think one but I just want to say that I think one thing I’m beginning to realize is

[31:37] thing I’m beginning to realize is talking about the big picture for talking about the big picture for marketing, the overarching objective for marketing, the overarching objective for kind of the this discussion is kind of the this discussion is kind of almost missing the point, which is of almost missing the point, which is that the real metagame isn’t an even

[31:46] that the real metagame isn’t an even further step up from there. It’s this further step up from there. It’s this more holistic more holistic organizationwide kind of exploration. organizationwide kind of exploration. How do you ensure close collaboration, How do you ensure close collaboration, alignment, etc. So,, again, great to alignment, etc. So,, again, great to hear that Josh, your firm is already

[31:59] hear that Josh, your firm is already working to establish a separate practice working to establish a separate practice to really kind of address that need in to really kind of address that need in the market because it’s it’s massive. I the market because it’s it’s massive. I could see we’re all over. could see we’re all over. That’s where the interesting work

[32:08] That’s where the interesting work happens, you know. That’s where that happens, you know. That’s where that’s where that’s that’s where the that’s where that’s that’s where the transformation and shifts occur, you transformation and shifts occur, you know. Yeah. people are so many Well, know. Yeah. people are so many Well, anyway, you guys have, I’m sure, real

[32:18] anyway, you guys have, I’m sure, real strong perspective here, too. I think strong perspective here, too. I think it’s I think it’s I think it’s a great it’s I think it’s I think it’s a great time. It’s the best place to ever be in time. It’s the best place to ever be in business. It’s the best time to ever be

[32:26] business. It’s the best time to ever be alive. It’s the most opportunity ever in alive. It’s the most opportunity ever in front of us. We can harness tools that front of us. We can harness tools that we’ve never had to focus on our zones of we’ve never had to focus on our zones of genius as marketers, genius as marketers, as leaders and organizations. What do

[32:39] as leaders and organizations. What do you do with that? you do with that? Which is a great segue. So Pon, you’re a Which is a great segue. So Pon, you’re a computer science guy. You mentioned that computer science guy. You mentioned that you’re using a lot of AI in your own you’re using a lot of AI in your own coding. Obviously being so deeply

[32:50] coding. Obviously being so deeply embedded within the marketing embedded within the marketing organizations of the firms you’re organizations of the firms you’re working with. I’m sure you’ve seen the working with. I’m sure you’ve seen the change has been brought about by the change has been brought about by LMS by AI within marketing. I would just

[33:00] LMS by AI within marketing. I would just love to get your take on what is the love to get your take on what is the other land, what is a bunch of other land, what is a bunch of vaporware, what is just unfounded buzz, vaporware, what is just unfounded buzz, what is actually creating value, what is what is actually creating value, what is the future kind of beginning to look

[33:14] the future kind of beginning to look like with these tools that are coming like with these tools that are coming online and online and yeah, that is a big question., you yeah, that is a big question., you know, we are also having this know, we are also having this conversation in the week where, conversation in the week where, Chachi BBT40 image generation dropped.

[33:30] Chachi BBT40 image generation dropped. That’s kind of rocking the world right That’s kind of rocking the world right now, right? It can pretty much create now, right? It can pretty much create spot-on, creatives in one shot. So, a spot-on, creatives in one shot. So, a lot of the things that used to require lot of the things that used to require headcount to scale is just no longer

[33:46] headcount to scale is just no longer really relevant. You know, I think one really relevant. You know, I think one thing that I that one thing that I see thing that I that one thing that I see is AI adoption is going to be very is AI adoption is going to be very uneven because most leaders are still

[33:58] uneven because most leaders are still with the mindset that scaling the with the mindset that scaling the business also comes with scaling business also comes with scaling headcounts and you know the future is headcounts and you know the future is really you know for my own business really you know for my own business we’re actually at 30% of headcount that

[34:11] we’re actually at 30% of headcount that we were at a year ago and we actually we were at a year ago and we actually have a larger business and larger have a larger business and larger accounts And on average, people are accounts And on average, people are actually happier, actually happier, you know, so that so we’re kind of on

[34:24] you know, so that so we’re kind of on the extreme end of like actually we’re the extreme end of like actually we’re trying to get smaller while getting trying to get smaller while getting bigger. I think, you know, for bigger. I think, you know, for brands, you know, I think the biggest brands, you know, I think the biggest thing is really kind of understand what

[34:37] thing is really kind of understand what are the workflows today that are the workflows today that are expensive, human intensive and expensive, human intensive and unpredictable and have a long lead time. unpredictable and have a long lead time. So creative generation is literally one So creative generation is literally one of those things. And of course with Meta

[34:52] of those things. And of course with Meta’s Andromeda and all of the Meta’s Andromeda and all of the mobile app games that needs additional mobile app games that needs additional creatives and YouTube everything else, creatives and YouTube everything else, right? The creative arms race is right? The creative arms race is basically going to be 10 100x, right? So

[35:08] basically going to be 10 100x, right? So if you could make 30 creatives in a week if you could make 30 creatives in a week before with a team of five, you know, before with a team of five, you know, now you can make 300 creatives with a now you can make 300 creatives with a team of two, but your sales are not

[35:19] team of two, but your sales are not going to go up by 10x, right? Yeah. So, going to go up by 10x, right? Yeah. So, you know, and you’re not going to be you know, and you’re not going to be able to spend 10x just because you have able to spend 10x just because you have 10x more creatives, but your competitors

[35:29] 10x more creatives, but your competitors are also going to be turnurning out are also going to be turnurning out three, four, 500 creatives at the end of three, four, 500 creatives at the end of the day, right? So what doesn’t change the day, right? So what doesn’t change is you still have to have taste. You is you still have to have taste. You still have to have you still have to

[35:42] still have to have you still have to understand data, right? And you still understand data, right? And you still have to have a source of truth in terms have to have a source of truth in terms of like how do we actually attribute of like how do we actually attribute revenue, right? And that actually kind revenue, right? And that actually kind of increases the need for firstparty

[35:55] of increases the need for firstparty data aggregation, having internal source data aggregation, having internal source of truth, having internally consistent of truth, having internally consistent KPIs and decision-m frameworks, having KPIs and decision-m frameworks, having an internally validated and thoughtful an internally validated and thoughtful attribution methodology. So when you do attribution methodology. So when you do 10x your creative, you know, you

[36:11] 10x your creative, you know, you actually know, well, what is the actually know, well, what is the incrementality of this effort here at incrementality of this effort here at all? all? You’re so spot on, man. Yeah. I mean, You’re so spot on, man. Yeah. I mean, it’s so that’s so right. So right. it’s so that’s so right. So right. And it’s like you is the leader. You’re

[36:24] And it’s like you is the leader. You’re the strategic thinker, but you can use the strategic thinker, but you can use these AI tools as your strategic thought these AI tools as your strategic thought partner, but don’t like outsource it partner, but don’t like outsource it all. Don’t have them come up with all. Don’t have them come up with all the ideas because they’ll come up with

[36:34] the ideas because they’ll come up with great ideas. You have like you have like great ideas. You have like you have like a hundred Elon Musks you know the like a hundred Elon Musks you know the like within the seconds but like don’t let within the seconds but like don’t let them do all the things because you are

[36:43] them do all the things because you are the one driving it. Yeah. I mean it does the one driving it. Yeah. I mean it does not replace judgment whatsoever. You not replace judgment whatsoever. You know with engineering you know we know with engineering you know we have dramatically reduced our have dramatically reduced our engineering headcounts while

[36:56] engineering headcounts while dramatically increased our engineering dramatically increased our engineering output. But what I say is every line of output. But what I say is every line of code that you commit, you’re you’re code that you commit, you’re you’re personally responsible for, you know, personally responsible for, you know, you can go ask a thousand AIs, I don’t

[37:08] you can go ask a thousand AIs, I don’t care, but you don’t get to commit trash care, but you don’t get to commit trash code, right? And that goes for code, right? And that goes for everything, you know? So that’s everything, you know? So that’s where, you know, I don’t know if you where, you know, I don’t know if you guys have heard of this barrels versus

[37:18] guys have heard of this barrels versus ammunition analogy from Keith Ra Boy. ammunition analogy from Keith Ra Boy., so I’ll do a real quick like, so I’ll do a real quick like explanation. You know, barrels are, you explanation. You know, barrels are, you know, people that are able to direct know, people that are able to direct resources into the directionality where

[37:33] resources into the directionality where it’s going to make an impact. And then it’s going to make an impact. And then ammunition are people that just needs to ammunition are people that just needs to be like, okay, what do you what do you be like, okay, what do you what do you need me to do? I need more specific

[37:41] need me to do? I need more specific instructions, right? So in the in the instructions, right? So in the in the pre-AII era you know you have in the pre-AII era you know you have in the bullets is your headcount and you may bullets is your headcount and you may have you have barrels that’s your VPs have you have barrels that’s your VPs and directors and

[37:52] and directors and seuitees and you have to scale your seuitees and you have to scale your ammunition by hiring but now that the ammunition by hiring but now that the marginal cost of increasing your marginal cost of increasing your ammunition is basically zero. So what do ammunition is basically zero. So what do you do in that world, right? And how do

[38:07] you do in that world, right? And how do you sort of help your existing you sort of help your existing ammunitions transition into barrels, you ammunitions transition into barrels, you know, and that’s kind of what a lot of know, and that’s kind of what a lot of the reskill reskilling has to happen the reskill reskilling has to happen because if you’re used to just doing

[38:18] because if you’re used to just doing this thing, you know, f taking something this thing, you know, f taking something through a workflow, through a comb on through a workflow, through a comb on board, right? That’s just no longer board, right? That’s just no longer really something that will bring about really something that will bring about job security., so a lot of

[38:32] job security., so a lot of implications there. So that’s really implications there. So that’s really good. That’s really good. Thank you. good. That’s really good. Thank you. So I’m curious in Nan state, it sounds So I’m curious in Nan state, it sounds like well if I’m wrong, but it sounds like well if I’m wrong, but it sounds like a lot of these AI tools will

[38:43] like a lot of these AI tools will basically replace agencies. So what basically replace agencies. So what you’re going to have is going back Josh, you’re going to have is going back Josh, you were talking about really strategic you were talking about really strategic roles being inhouse, everything else roles being inhouse, everything else being outsourced. It sounds like

[38:53] being outsourced. It sounds like strategic roles. So figuring like you strategic roles. So figuring like you know what is onbrand creative for know what is onbrand creative for example. figuring out this budgeting example. figuring out this budgeting that can stay inside and then everything that can stay inside and then everything else is just going to become AI agents.

[39:04] else is just going to become AI agents. Well, you know, it depends. I Well, you know, it depends. I wouldn’t, you know, it depends how good wouldn’t, you know, it depends how good the agency is. You know, it depends how the agency is. You know, it depends how if the agency the agency is that if the agency the agency is that strategic and they’re able to harness

[39:13] strategic and they’re able to harness these tools to create that much better these tools to create that much better of a product and that’s all they think of a product and that’s all they think about and they’re maniacal 24 hours a about and they’re maniacal 24 hours a day. there’s they are going to outpace day. there’s they are going to outpace all the people doing internally that

[39:25] all the people doing internally that also have to deal with supply chain and also have to deal with supply chain and product and finance and operations. So product and finance and operations. So that’s zero sum game. It’s like everyone that’s zero sum game. It’s like everyone can level up if they harness it and can level up if they harness it and provide much more valuable services and

[39:36] provide much more valuable services and much better quantitative and qualitative much better quantitative and qualitative creative. So I don’t think it puts creative. So I don’t think it puts people out of biz. I think it puts people out of biz. I think it puts people who aren’t good people who aren’t good business in the first place. But

[39:48] business in the first place. But absolutely, you know. Yeah. So, it’ll absolutely, you know. Yeah. So, it’ll just create new roles and like to do just create new roles and like to do more impactful work, I think. Yeah, more impactful work, I think. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, the qu the first totally. Yeah. I mean, the qu the first question I’m like, I don’t care if it’s

[39:57] question I’m like, I don’t care if it’s an executive, a full-time employee, a an executive, a full-time employee, a contractor, or agency. Are they a barrel contractor, or agency. Are they a barrel or are they ammunition, right? I think or are they ammunition, right? I think most agencies are used to being most agencies are used to being ammunitions. Like, I’ll turn out 30

[40:09] ammunitions. Like, I’ll turn out 30 creatives for you per week for this much creatives for you per week for this much money, right? And that’s a very clean money, right? And that’s a very clean sort of bill of goods that then they sort of bill of goods that then they invoice the clients for but like what is

[40:18] invoice the clients for but like what is the result right? So if you can find a the result right? So if you can find a barrel in the form of an agency or a barrel in the form of an agency or a person then their salary or pay capacity person then their salary or pay capacity is technically infinity because they can

[40:31] is technically infinity because they can create ROI that is way beyond any dollar create ROI that is way beyond any dollar that you’re going to give them., so that you’re going to give them., so and those are really going to be the and those are really going to be the winners, you know, like no matter what

[40:41] winners, you know, like no matter what it is, how you provide your services and it is, how you provide your services and expertise, even as a SAS product, even expertise, even as a SAS product, even as a technical product., that’s as a technical product., that’s what’s going to win in the future. what’s going to win in the future. I’m curious in terms of the brands you

[40:53] I’m curious in terms of the brands you worked with, Ivon, how many of them are worked with, Ivon, how many of them are heavy users of AI LM? How many of them heavy users of AI LM? How many of them are just, you know, playing around with are just, you know, playing around with the just very rough like gut sense

[41:02] the just very rough like gut sense percentages? Where are we you know on percentages? Where are we you know on this front with smaller brands call it this front with smaller brands call it like you know 10 20 30 million mature like you know 10 20 30 million mature brands where what is the current state brands where what is the current state of the market? Yeah, most brands are not

[41:16] of the market? Yeah, most brands are not really adopting AI. Let’s just be really adopting AI. Let’s just be honest, you know. That’s not to say honest, you know. That’s not to say they’re not using ChBT. That’s not to they’re not using ChBT. That’s not to say they’re not using other consumerf say they’re not using other consumerf facing

[41:26] facing AI apps. Like we all use it, right? AI apps. Like we all use it, right? Like I think that’s the baseline that Like I think that’s the baseline that doesn’t mean that you’re adopting, that doesn’t mean that you’re adopting, right? If I hear, you know, I just was right? If I hear, you know, I just was hanging out with one of my customers

[41:38] hanging out with one of my customers that’s kind of scaling from 60 mil to that’s kind of scaling from 60 mil to nine figures this year. you know, to nine figures this year. you know, he’s still mostly concerned about how am he’s still mostly concerned about how am I going to scale a headcount and they

[41:46] I going to scale a headcount and they already kind of scaled ahead on already kind of scaled ahead on headcount expecting the growth. so headcount expecting the growth. so that’s that’s just going to be the norm that’s that’s just going to be the norm in business thinking, right? So that’s in business thinking, right? So that’s going to take a long time to actually

[41:57] going to take a long time to actually change, you know, to kind of get change, you know, to kind of get to this other way of thinking which is to this other way of thinking which is like no, we don’t more headcount doesn’t like no, we don’t more headcount doesn’t really bring us anything. Some might

[42:07] really bring us anything. Some might argue, right? argue, right? Yeah. Mhm. And it’s also like we were Yeah. Mhm. And it’s also like we were talking about this, we’re building this talking about this, we’re building this huge transformation division now and huge transformation division now and we’re talking about this with a really we’re talking about this with a really huge supplements company. It’s like make

[42:19] huge supplements company. It’s like make no mistake like what you’re hiring for no mistake like what you’re hiring for right now is not what you’re going to right now is not what you’re going to need in 12 or 24 months. So you better need in 12 or 24 months. So you better think about how you’re transforming your

[42:29] think about how you’re transforming your entire organization and strap on your entire organization and strap on your seat belt and make sure you have the seat belt and make sure you have the right people there. Like so you got to right people there. Like so you got to get way ahead of it. That doesn’t mean get way ahead of it. That doesn’t mean spending more money or spending or

[42:38] spending more money or spending or hiring more heads. It means to really hiring more heads. It means to really think about role involvement and how think about role involvement and how that collaborate like collaboratively that collaborate like collaboratively supports other functions in the supports other functions in the business. So what you I think you’re business. So what you I think you’re going to see what I’m so excited about

[42:53] going to see what I’m so excited about is organizational design transformation is organizational design transformation now the way organs are built that’s now the way organs are built that’s where we’re sitting. We’re like this is where we’re sitting. We’re like this is awesome. And by the way no one has it awesome. And by the way no one has it all figured out yet but if you’re not

[43:04] all figured out yet but if you’re not thinking about it I like I’m most people thinking about it I like I’m most people are using chat GBT for emails. That’s are using chat GBT for emails. That’s what they’re doing. And by the way, what they’re doing. And by the way, that’s a great start. Don’t I don’t that’s a great start. Don’t I don’t think you should ever give yourself a

[43:13] think you should ever give yourself a hard time because you’re not at the hard time because you’re not at the destination yet. Just get started. Like destination yet. Just get started. Like my thing with my team and even my kids my thing with my team and even my kids is like they don’t my kids don’t listen is like they don’t my kids don’t listen to me. But if they did listen to me

[43:24] to me. But if they did listen to me would be spend 20 minutes a day, no would be spend 20 minutes a day, no noise, no distraction, just work on an noise, no distraction, just work on an AI project every single day. If you do AI project every single day. If you do something 18 minutes a day with no

[43:38] something 18 minutes a day with no distraction, you will be in the top 5% distraction, you will be in the top 5% of the world at that. 18 minutes a day. of the world at that. 18 minutes a day. It’s fact. Anything could be playing It’s fact. Anything could be playing pool or playing. So, so just real

[43:48] pool or playing. So, so just real focused attention every single day. Now, focused attention every single day. Now, there’s lots of people spending weeks on there’s lots of people spending weeks on this So, you know, AI might be a this So, you know, AI might be a little bit different, but the point is little bit different, but the point is just take little incremental steps and

[43:57] just take little incremental steps and don’t give yourself a hard time. Get don’t give yourself a hard time. Get better at it. Get better at it. Get better at it. Get better at it. Get better at it. And then what you’ll find better at it. And then what you’ll find is it allows you to do the stuff you

[44:03] is it allows you to do the stuff you want to do and removes all this other want to do and removes all this other stuff from your plate that you don’t stuff from your plate that you don’t want to do. And so it’s nothing to be want to do. And so it’s nothing to be scared about because you’re not at the

[44:11] scared about because you’re not at the finish line. No one’s at the finish line finish line. No one’s at the finish line yet. So I just like take a deep breath yet. So I just like take a deep breath and just get into it a little bit. It’s and just get into it a little bit. It’s a blast. I built a I’m not a coder. I

[44:20] a blast. I built a I’m not a coder. I don’t do Python. I built an whole app don’t do Python. I built an whole app last night in bed next to my wife in 30 last night in bed next to my wife in 30 minutes. It was minutes. It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s the type awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s the type of stuff you could do. It’s great.

[44:35] of stuff you could do. It’s great. I’m kind of curious. So looking at it, I’m kind of curious. So looking at it, let’s say 12 months out. So these let’s say 12 months out. So these organizations you’re consulting, you’re organizations you’re consulting, you’re advising now, advising now,, you know, make a bunch of make the

[44:47], you know, make a bunch of make the highs they’re thinking about making. The highs they’re thinking about making. The world changes., some people will have world changes., some people will have done those 18 minutes of exercise a day done those 18 minutes of exercise a day and they’ll be, you know, well qualified and they’ll be, you know, well qualified to keep using to use the these new

[44:57] to keep using to use the these new tools. Others won’t. tools. Others won’t. I guess thinking about it from the other I guess thinking about it from the other side of these 12 months. How do you side of these 12 months. How do you figure out you know if the organization figure out you know if the organization is too large you were talking

[45:09] is too large you were talking about you know the or you were talking about you know the or you were talking to they had already kind of were hired to they had already kind of were hired ahead of a expected growth and they were ahead of a expected growth and they were talking about growing the team further.

[45:16] talking about growing the team further. I see this quite a bit companies getting I see this quite a bit companies getting their skis and opex it’s there cross their skis and opex it’s there cross functioning but certainly within functioning but certainly within marketing as well. how can you tell marketing as well. how can you tell if you have you know fat in your

[45:25] if you have you know fat in your organization if you have fat? Yeah, it’s organization if you have fat? Yeah, it’s a great that’s a you want to take a great that’s a you want to take a first that’s a great or that’s a great first that’s a great or that’s a great question. I mean it depends on the

[45:34] question. I mean it depends on the organs too. It also it also depends on organs too. It also it also depends on like are you a venturebacked private like are you a venturebacked private equity backed business that’s like grow equity backed business that’s like grow at all costs because it’s a winner take at all costs because it’s a winner take all market or you’re a consumer products

[45:45] all market or you’re a consumer products business that needs to focus on high business that needs to focus on high gross margin in Ibida you know and gross margin in Ibida you know and so a marketplace isn’t you know so a marketplace isn’t you know commercial platforms are different than commercial platforms are different than launching cookie dough yeah I’m just

[45:57] launching cookie dough yeah I’m just thinking well let’s see talking about thinking well let’s see talking about consumer specifically so not a universe consumer specifically so not a universe where we have you know infinite money to where we have you know infinite money to try and take over world, but more to try and take over world, but more so, you know, regular people building

[46:09] so, you know, regular people building nine figure businesses. You know, just nine figure businesses. You know, just your average Joe around the corner. your average Joe around the corner. that’s sarcasm. Sorry, I’m That’s that’s sarcasm. Sorry, I’m That’s definitely not regular. Yeah. Just definitely not regular. Yeah. Just to be clear, but like I’d love to build

[46:19] to be clear, but like I’d love to build a nine figure business. So, a nine figure business. So, but yeah, one of these folks, how but yeah, one of these folks, how would they think about Yeah. finding would they think about Yeah. finding like figuring out whether the like figuring out whether the organization is potentially, you know,

[46:32] organization is potentially, you know, too large, too bloated? Well, general too large, too bloated? Well, general could be some vertical. Well, what well could be some vertical. Well, what well like here’s what doesn’t change is like here’s what doesn’t change is financial fundamentals. Like Jad GPD is financial fundamentals. Like Jad GPD is not changing the financial fundamentals

[46:44] not changing the financial fundamentals of a business that might be in the of a business that might be in the supplement space that needs a 65 to 75% supplement space that needs a 65 to 75% gross margin and 15% IBIDA like so gross margin and 15% IBIDA like so plan accordingly. plan accordingly. Think about your operations team, your

[46:58] Think about your operations team, your finance team, your sales team, your finance team, your sales team, your marketing team, your trade channel marketing team, your trade channel optimization and make money like you optimization and make money like you know so none of that’s not that’s not know so none of that’s not that’s not changing now the way in which the

[47:10] changing now the way in which the teams you know the teams are structured teams you know the teams are structured you know in each specific function will you know in each specific function will because of skills and you know new because of skills and you know new upleveling of skills and leveraging upleveling of skills and leveraging tools and things that you don’t need to

[47:20] tools and things that you don’t need to do anymore but like if you’re I you have do anymore but like if you’re I you have to fundamentally to fundamentally put together a financial plan and put together a financial plan and business is business you know and so I business is business you know and so I think those are just questions you ask

[47:33] think those are just questions you ask yourself on a quarterly ba I was saying yourself on a quarterly ba I was saying this is so funny this is so funny it’s really it’s really interesting see we just hired a new CEO interesting see we just hired a new CEO forest who’s amazing and he was

[47:46] forest who’s amazing and he was saying you know you know what I saying you know you know what I used to think is quarterly planning used to think is quarterly planning quarterly planning we call them rocks quarterly planning we call them rocks Those are monthly. No, those are weekly Those are monthly. No, those are weekly plans now. Those are weekly plans. It’s

[47:59] plans now. Those are weekly plans. It’s not too dissimilar to what’s happened on not too dissimilar to what’s happened on Sand Hill Road for the past 20 years of, Sand Hill Road for the past 20 years of, you know, just, you know, weekly you know, just, you know, weekly standups and sprints. Yeah. So, so but standups and sprints. Yeah. So, so but financially as a business like that

[48:16] financially as a business like that requires real discipline, you know, and requires real discipline, you know, and so business can move really fast, but so business can move really fast, but don’t move your financial objectives don’t move your financial objectives ever. Yeah. I guess part of the reason ever. Yeah. I guess part of the reason why I’m asking this question is because

[48:27] why I’m asking this question is because it’s been really remarkable to me to see it’s been really remarkable to me to see I mean the day consumer products there’s I mean the day consumer products there’s variety but there’s a certain limited variety but there’s a certain limited variety in terms of the variety in terms of the things that go into material supply

[48:38] things that go into material supply chain having financial planning having chain having financial planning having marketing etc and in spite of the marketing etc and in spite of the similarity I’ve seen a lot of orgs where similarity I’ve seen a lot of orgs where you know allex marketing is single you know allex marketing is single digits and then some where it’s like 35

[48:50] digits and then some where it’s like 35 40 50% and it’s just 40 50% and it’s just To your point on the importance of To your point on the importance of financial planning, I kind of feel like financial planning, I kind of feel like the natural limit a lot of people are the natural limit a lot of people are just they push their opex to the

[49:00] just they push their opex to the point that they really can point that they really can without thinking about whether they without thinking about whether they really need to hire that additional one really need to hire that additional one or two people. Like they sure they can or two people. Like they sure they can be helpful, but like is the ROI

[49:09] be helpful, but like is the ROI justified? So here’s what I would that’s justified? So here’s what I would that’s a that’s a that’s a great question, man. a that’s a that’s a great question, man. I think there’s a difference I think there’s a difference between it’s a great question. The between it’s a great question. The difference between a VP of finance and a

[49:22] difference between a VP of finance and a CFO, an accountant. Yeah., you know, CFO, an accountant. Yeah., you know, accounting controllers, VP of finance, accounting controllers, VP of finance, they look backwards. Yeah. CFOs look they look backwards. Yeah. CFOs look forward. They find ways to create and forward. They find ways to create and optimize. optimize. If you have a CFO in your organization,

[49:37] If you have a CFO in your organization, it’s a chief financial officer. They it’s a chief financial officer. They need to be operators. They need to need to be operators. They need to constantly be this is not about constantly be this is not about reconciliation of the books, right? This reconciliation of the books, right? This is about moving forward operationally

[49:48] is about moving forward operationally throughout the team. That’s why really throughout the team. That’s why really good CFOs like John over at Celsius good CFOs like John over at Celsius became the CEO, you know? Yeah. I mean, became the CEO, you know? Yeah. I mean, because he’s a great operator and he because he’s a great operator and he thinks about each function. So, I think

[50:01] thinks about each function. So, I think it’s an opportunity for people to level it’s an opportunity for people to level up and like, oh my god, this business is up and like, oh my god, this business is moving so fast, you know, is it you want moving so fast, you know, is it you want someone that’s commercially savvy, but

[50:09] someone that’s commercially savvy, but you also want someone running the you also want someone running the organization that’s got financial chops. organization that’s got financial chops. Yeah. You know, that can help everyone Yeah. You know, that can help everyone kind of put stakes in the ground. kind of put stakes in the ground. Does that does that was that appropriate

[50:21] Does that does that was that appropriate like what I was that’s helpful. I like what I was that’s helpful. I think that’s helpful. I think what think that’s helpful. I think what about goes back to the big picture which about goes back to the big picture which is again I know Josh a point of strength

[50:29] is again I know Josh a point of strength for you. Fan going back down to like for you. Fan going back down to like more kind of grassroots level. I’m more kind of grassroots level. I’m curious from your perspective again curious from your perspective again facing the marketing teams have there facing the marketing teams have there been situations where you’ve kind of

[50:41] been situations where you’ve kind of thought okay this person really thought okay this person really shouldn’t be there like they don’t shouldn’t be there like they don’t need to have a job or I mean if you were need to have a job or I mean if you were going in and helping the CEOs of

[50:49] going in and helping the CEOs of these orgs figure out kind of who to put these orgs figure out kind of who to put on chopping block this is a terrible on chopping block this is a terrible question to ask I have a lot of question to ask I have a lot of marketers who are friends

[50:57] marketers who are friends so a lot of you guys don’t really impair so a lot of you guys don’t really impair careers but like how would you think careers but like how would you think about who is and isn’t worth their about who is and isn’t worth their key Yeah, I mean the controversial thing

[51:06] Yeah, I mean the controversial thing that I’ll say right now is 99% of that I’ll say right now is 99% of businesses are too fat already and businesses are too fat already and that’s all that goalpost is only that’s all that goalpost is only going to be moving super fast in terms going to be moving super fast in terms of what being too fat is. Yeah. So

[51:20] of what being too fat is. Yeah. So that’s just a fact. And you know right that’s just a fact. And you know right now when you’re thinking about scaling now when you’re thinking about scaling in terms of adding headcount I’m not in terms of adding headcount I’m not even necessarily worried about the even necessarily worried about the money. I’m more so worried about what is

[51:32] money. I’m more so worried about what is that gonna do to add on as far as that gonna do to add on as far as baggage is concerning our decision- baggage is concerning our decision- making process in our communication. Do making process in our communication. Do we need another person in the telephone we need another person in the telephone chain where things are actually going to

[51:44] chain where things are actually going to get dropped? You know, and that’s pretty get dropped? You know, and that’s pretty much every company I’ve ever come across much every company I’ve ever come across to be honest with you. so, but you to be honest with you. so, but you know, like for example, if you’re very

[51:57] know, like for example, if you’re very profitable, you’re going to want profitable, you’re going to want redundancy. like that was what everybody redundancy. like that was what everybody was telling CEOs you need redundancy in was telling CEOs you need redundancy in the organization you need to whatever the organization you need to whatever right it just well it’s still more

[52:07] right it just well it’s still more humans as the solution but you know the humans as the solution but you know the paradigm shift that is not that the paradigm shift that is not that hasn’t happened but people will be hasn’t happened but people will be forced to sort of grapple with it is no

[52:21] forced to sort of grapple with it is no more humans is not the solution period more humans is not the solution period pretty much most times right and you pretty much most times right and you know in a in a marketing organiz know in a in a marketing organiz ganization you know well let’s just even ganization you know well let’s just even look at CS for example right now

[52:34] look at CS for example right now we went from okay US space agents to we went from okay US space agents to outsource international agents to robot outsource international agents to robot agents so at what point does the head of agents so at what point does the head of CX basically becomes a oneperson CX basically becomes a oneperson department right that is sort of an

[52:50] department right that is sort of an inevitability but that doesn’t mean that inevitability but that doesn’t mean that the people that you do have is not the people that you do have is not useful it’s about repurposing right like useful it’s about repurposing right like they should be repurposed to sales. They should be repurposed to sales. They should be repurposed to, you know,

[53:02] should be repurposed to, you know, saving returns, right? And things saving returns, right? And things that humans are uniquely good at. And that humans are uniquely good at. And that also means, you know, people need that also means, you know, people need to sort of realize like what is my skill to sort of realize like what is my skill set today

[53:14] set today and what how does my skill set needs to and what how does my skill set needs to pivot, you know, in the next 12 months, pivot, you know, in the next 12 months, you know, same thing with marketing, you know, same thing with marketing, right? If you if you look at most right? If you if you look at most meta ads sort of junior people or

[53:27] meta ads sort of junior people or mid-level people, a lot of them are just mid-level people, a lot of them are just kind of doing a workflow. kind of doing a workflow. Yeah. Because that’s what they’ve been Yeah. Because that’s what they’ve been doing. Well, you know, but the thing is doing. Well, you know, but the thing is Meta’s ad platform is, you know, moving

[53:41] Meta’s ad platform is, you know, moving very fast. But really, that’s all very fast. But really, that’s all there’s no reason, I think, to a certain there’s no reason, I think, to a certain extent to kind of overthink on am I sick extent to kind of overthink on am I sick or not. I think but you still need

[53:52] or not. I think but you still need to kind of be prepared because that the to kind of be prepared because that the there is going to be a moment when the there is going to be a moment when your competitors are creating 10x more your competitors are creating 10x more ad creatives than you. When your

[54:03] ad creatives than you. When your competitors are winning way more competitors are winning way more customers than you. When your customers than you. When your competitors are able to offer the same competitors are able to offer the same product at a at a lower price or less product at a at a lower price or less discounts. That’s when it’s too late,

[54:13] discounts. That’s when it’s too late, right? With less headcount potentially, right? With less headcount potentially, right? So that’s going to happen and new right? So that’s going to happen and new brands will pop up that is sort of you brands will pop up that is sort of you know instead of saying digitally native know instead of saying digitally native we’re going to have AI native brands

[54:26] we’re going to have AI native brands right and that you know for right and that you know for organizations that kind of grew up in organizations that kind of grew up in the last few the last few years as digitally native which they years as digitally native which they were able to compete with the more

[54:37] were able to compete with the more traditional brick and mortar then now traditional brick and mortar then now they’re going to have to compete with they’re going to have to compete with this new crop of brands that are more AI this new crop of brands that are more AI native that’s going to have less native that’s going to have less headcount that’s going to have Hopefully

[54:47] headcount that’s going to have Hopefully they people are going to get smarter they people are going to get smarter about the importance of firstparty data, about the importance of firstparty data, right? Having a unified decision- right? Having a unified decision- making framework, then you can run super framework, then you can run super lean, you know? So, there is no reason

[54:59] lean, you know? So, there is no reason why a 10 people company can’t build a why a 10 people company can’t build a $500 million brand. There’s no reason $500 million brand. There’s no reason why that’s not the case today other than why that’s not the case today other than just like you need to lift things and,

[55:08] just like you need to lift things and, you know, more physical work that you know, more physical work that you can’t really outsource that. But, of can’t really outsource that. But, of course, the robots are coming on that course, the robots are coming on that side, too. So, side, too. So, Such great points, man. I mean, I

[55:19] Such great points, man. I mean, I think I think I think you’re really spot think I think I think you’re really spot on. I spoke with the supplements company on. I spoke with the supplements company two days ago that’s $80 million run rate two days ago that’s $80 million run rate with seven employees. with seven employees. There you go. Seven. Now, their seven

[55:30] There you go. Seven. Now, their seven employees are badasses. Yeah. They’re employees are badasses. Yeah. They’re amazing, you know. But, you know, like amazing, you know. But, you know, like it’s it’s not to say you lay people off. it’s it’s not to say you lay people off. You have the right people like Yeah. You have the right people like Yeah. You know, and you repurpose. It’s like what

[55:43] know, and you repurpose. It’s like what do people what job should I have? What do people what job should I have? What do you want to learn? Like what skills do you want to learn? Like what skills do you want to develop to futureproof do you want to develop to futureproof yourself so you can become super yourself so you can become super valuable to anyone’s organization or

[55:54] valuable to anyone’s organization or your own organization because right well your own organization because right well you know sky’s is the limit there. So you know sky’s is the limit there. So that type of I think mentality really that type of I think mentality really matters. matters. I chose to just pick on your point on ad I chose to just pick on your point on ad creative. One kind of crazy thought I

[56:08] creative. One kind of crazy thought I had was you can scrape the Facebook ad had was you can scrape the Facebook ad libraries. Literally you can just go libraries. Literally you can just go find fastest growing brands. scrape find fastest growing brands. scrape all of their historical ads and like all of their historical ads and like literally just train your alum on those.

[56:19] literally just train your alum on those. yeah, there’s multiple vendors out yeah, there’s multiple vendors out there you can sign up for today that there you can sign up for today that does that. You know what I mean? So does that. You know what I mean? So yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. That’s the new that’s the new starting

[56:30] That’s the new that’s the new starting point. Like it’s not even like an idea point. Like it’s not even like an idea now. Like if you’re not doing it, you’re now. Like if you’re not doing it, you’re just slowly eroding your advantage over just slowly eroding your advantage over time, right? And you’re going to be fine time, right? And you’re going to be fine for a while, but one day,

[56:44] for a while, but one day, crap, what are we going to do, right? crap, what are we going to do, right? and I think that’s that’s an and I think that’s that’s an inevitability right now. Yeah. And that’s where a lot right now. Yeah. And that’s where a lot of opportunities in terms of

[56:55] of opportunities in terms of transforming businesses will come about. transforming businesses will come about. You know, I’m sure private equity will You know, I’m sure private equity will have a lot of opportunities there as have a lot of opportunities there as well. you know but not every business well. you know but not every business will be able to transform in time but a

[57:06] will be able to transform in time but a lot of them will so you know I’m lot of them will so you know I’m very cur I’m definitely like watching very cur I’m definitely like watching kind of how businesses are adopting kind of how businesses are adopting these technologies and you know and

[57:15] these technologies and you know and what they’re doing but we’re still early what they’re doing but we’re still early you know I would say most of our you know I would say most of our customers are very savvy and very customers are very savvy and very technical and very technical and very digital but in terms of truly just

[57:27] digital but in terms of truly just going ham like kind of what Clara did going ham like kind of what Clara did with their fast stack, right? Most with their fast stack, right? Most companies are absolutely not doing that. companies are absolutely not doing that. I know we’re at time, Josh. I think I know we’re at time, Josh. I think you have something to hop to. do you

[57:41] you have something to hop to. do you have time actually for one more just have time actually for one more just very quick question or do you have need? very quick question or do you have need? Of course. Of course. So just thing I Of course. Of course. So just thing I wanted to really just ask really quickly

[57:48] wanted to really just ask really quickly as we’re about to wrap up here is as we’re about to wrap up here is biggest mistake you’ve been you’ve seen biggest mistake you’ve been you’ve seen biggest mistake you have seen a biggest mistake you have seen a marketing organization make? Biggest marketing organization make? Biggest mistake strategically. Yeah. hiring

[58:01] mistake strategically. Yeah. hiring channel operators before nailing their channel operators before nailing their strategy. strategy., scaling paid media before they, scaling paid media before they validated product market fit. validated product market fit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And keeping marketing Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And keeping marketing siloed from product finance and ops. siloed from product finance and ops. Very helpful. Fon,

[58:21], I’m actually going to echo those three. I think, Josh pretty much, three. I think, Josh pretty much, hit it right on the head. So that those hit it right on the head. So that those we should hang out more. We got to get we should hang out more. We got to get to know each other better and figure out

[58:31] to know each other better and figure out how to do some cool things together. how to do some cool things together. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I need to Yeah, for sure. For sure. I need to visit your cabin visit your cabin there. Looks nice. It looks like a there. Looks nice. It looks like a cabin, but it’s really like a cassita in

[58:40] cabin, but it’s really like a cassita in my backyard where no one bothers me. Oh, my backyard where no one bothers me. Oh, nice. Nice set up. Yeah. Yeah. Again, nice. Nice set up. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I’m gonna just say thank you if you can I’m gonna just say thank you if you can just hold on after the stream. Great. We

[58:50] just hold on after the stream. Great. We can just do very quickly, but again, can just do very quickly, but again, thank you so much for being part of thank you so much for being part of this and thank you for joining us this and thank you for joining us today. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

[58:59] today. Thank you. All right. Thank you. And the