Feifan Wang, Source Medium | Coffee with a Founder Podcast

[00:00] You were walking aggressively over to Bang Capital. >> Yeah. >> What a life. >> What a day we’re in. >> It’s true. It’s true. Uh FA, we’re going to start just with that like cold open. Everybody, this is coffee with a founder. I’m Beck Bamberger. We do this show because we want to better understand why founders are doing the

[00:22] hilacious things of running venturebacked companies and frankly you know how do you survive it and why why do you even do it to begin with and with us today is Fe Wang. He is the CEO and founder of Source Media doing a lot as it relates to agents and who’s not doing a lot with agents right now and data

[00:41] infrastructure specifically. So we’re going to get into that but FA thank you for being here first off. >> Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m excited get into this. >> Where are you calling in from today? New York. >> Uh Miami, actually. >> Oh, Miami. What are you doing there? >> Conference fun. >> Uh I live here. Yeah.

[01:00] >> Oh. Oh, >> I live here. >> Yeah. >> On your LinkedIn, sir. It says New York is Wait, >> I actually do half and half. Um >> Okay. >> Half New York, half Miami. So, I just I just switched back uh last week, actually. So, >> okay. >> Excited to be back. Excellent. What a contrast, especially this time of year

[01:19] between the two, I’m sure, because it’s freezing >> there and Yeah. Yeah. Good. >> I’m feeling very lucky. It’s It’s funny. There’s been like a cold front in Miami and and people are like, >> “Oh, it’s like >> explaining how it’s cold. >> 70 degrees today.” Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> FA, what are we doing at Source Medium?

[01:40] What is this infrastructure that we’re working on? Data infrastructure specifically. >> Yeah. Thank you for that question. So basically what we do is we help eight to nine figure e-commerce brands manage their data. So what does that mean? Aggregate it, unify it, clean it, make it into uh a common set of repeatable schemas and ways of presenting that information that works

[02:05] across really any merchants that are on the e-commerce platforms we support. You know, we support Shopify, Amazon, Tik Tok shop, etc. And people are able to essentially look at all of their data from all of these different channels with a single pane of glass. And uh and now this week we are actually launching our Slack data analyst agent that is now able to talk

[02:33] to all of your data >> and uh get you the answers. So that’s been like the latest evolution of our of our journey. Hm. And previously you were doing, you know, the EIR thing, the entrepreneur and resident for a little bit, and then you were also a fellow at Robin Hood. So, how was this baking in your brain that this needed to be come

[02:53] about? >> Yeah. So, my last job was at a uh company called Resident Home. So, we I I joined there fairly early and and and as of today, it’s the largest online mattress retailer in North America. Uh we have many different brands. You may have heard of uh Nectar and Dream Cloud etc. >> Yeah. So um you know when I when I uh

[03:18] joined we were kind of in this hyperrowth phase and data was just like an everpresent issue too much data you know it’s broken it’s not accurate it’s not usable it’s not actionable all the different things and I kind of went down this rabbit hole of trying to build a data infrastructure internally you know next thing you know I’m like having all

[03:39] of these different vendor conversations deciding between BigQuery versus Snowflake and having to hire people to come in and sort of like manage all of these very expensive uh software products that don’t inherently talk to each other and we’re just selling mattresses, right? So, that was kind of like my big um revelation is managing data is >> a problem in every business, but like

[04:08] >> in this one especially, we’re just selling mattresses. So what about the brand that’s selling sandals and furniturees and all kinds of stuff? >> Yeah, >> there’s just this problem is is ever present. So that’s that’s kind of where the where source medium came from. >> Is it just me, FA, or is a lot of what’s trying to be solved right now is how all

[04:30] of your tech stack doesn’t talk to each other and so let’s have a thing that makes it all talk to each other, >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. in in in May 2020 uh when I started the company this was not like people always like well why doesn’t this sandals company just hire a data scientist right so >> uh I don’t think that’s what people

[04:52] would say now right I feel like people are much more about hey you need to find the the Shopify equivalent of this thing >> and uh so yeah so that but that did take that did take a lot of perseverance because uh that was not the the common uh opinion back then. >> H okay. So not related to that but going

[05:15] further back like even further back you immigrated here to the US when you were 14 from China. >> That’s what I heard. That’s what I got. Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And I have in your bio your early experience of culture adaptation laid the groundwork for your entrepreneurial spirit. And you worked at Google, you did all types of things. Yeah. resident

[05:37] home and and so forth. But talk a little bit about that because there’s so many so many so many >> ventureback founders who are immigrants. Obviously, this is a topic that is very apppropo right now and in the vernacular and with the visas and all that other crap going on. So, just tell us from your own opinion and from your own

[05:55] experience how that has shaped you today. Yeah, it’s one of those things I would not repeat again, but I would also not not having gone through that either, you know. Uh like when I first arrived in the States, I actually didn’t speak any English >> and I was >> Okay. Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> I was air dropped into the middle of

[06:18] seventh grade in middle school. Uh I didn’t know what a trapper keeper was. I didn’t know how to use those lockers. Like >> Oh, wow. You know, in China, we sit in a classroom and we don’t walk around different class. Like everything was kind of opposite. >> Wow. Wait, where do you drop ship to by the way? Like somewhere in the middle of

[06:36] the country or where? >> In Maryland, actually. >> Oh, okay. Not in the middle, but Okay. Got >> in the suburbs. That was my >> I don’t know if you want to disclose this, but like what how how what happened? Did your parents go like, “Okay, we got our visas. Like, we’re going.” >> Yeah. My mom actually had a chance to go

[06:55] work at NIH uh in Bethesda and uh you know and and that was our opportunity for that was her opportunity to bring me here >> and the rest is history. Yeah. >> Wow. >> So you’re there in Maryland seventh grade. You don’t speak any English. You don’t even know what the not thing is. Oh god. Okay. God.

[07:17] >> Absolutely none. Yeah. But now I dreamy English. But, you know, I’ I’ve been speaking English now much longer than uh Chinese, you know. So, I’m almost 40 though. So, you know, >> it’s been a while. It’s been a while. >> Been around for a while. Yeah. >> It’s been a while. Dang. Okay. Is there a pivotal moment in seventh

[07:38] grade, eighth grade, anything where you’re just like, “Oh, this was when I had I don’t know, like rock bottom moment of just I am totally a fish out of water or or the how am I going to survive this?” >> Just curious. >> Yeah, that that was on like first day of school. Uh school. Uh >> yeah. Well, like I didn’t know, for

[07:58] example, that you have to change uh go to the locker room and change for gym class. That was not a thing for us. We just like gym classing our regular uniforms. I actually didn’t even have anything to change into. I didn’t have a lock. So, I was shadowing um someone who came like a year earlier and she’s she’s a girl. So, I was so

[08:20] scared I was waiting outside of the uh girls locker room for her to come out because I didn’t know where to go. So every single girl in seventh grade came out and looked at me and was like, “Okay, what are you what are you doing?” And I was like, >> “Wait, so you’re like, “Hey, I’m in gym

[08:37] class.” And you’re like, “Where are you going? What are you where’s the out why did the outfit change? >> Why are you Well, no, they were all like, “What are you doing here?” Like, >> oh, >> why are you standing here? Like, I didn’t even have any Nikes. I had like leanings, you know? >> I was like wearing a whole other outfit.

[08:56] Oh my god. >> And I just stood out. So, uh, and and people were like, “Why are you what are you doing? Like, why are you standing outside the girls locker room?” And I I I I could only say, “I don’t understand.” >> And, uh, I was just like waiting for her to come out. So, yeah, that that

[09:12] basically like destroyed my self-esteem for a while. I’m like, “All right, now forget about talking to any girls for a while, you know?” >> Oh, god. Oh, okay. Well, obviously you’ve bounced back. So, how did how did it get better basically? >> Yeah. It was only up from there. I can tell you that. >> I mean, yeah. You know what? One of my

[09:35] favorite things is you can’t fall from the floor. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> You can’t fall from the floor. >> So, when you’re on it, >> okay, it’s cold. >> Yeah. But I didn’t I didn’t know that was that was rock bottom at that moment. Uh there may have been lower moments. I’m not sure. >> Okay. I was going to say was it okay

[09:53] because now reflecting to get into this whole psychological deep dive but >> I’m an open book so you can ask me. Yeah. I mean it’s hard it’s hard to remember my entire life but like definitely that’s one of those moments where I I will never forget you know and that’s like part of who I am and that’s

[10:10] like part of the reason for for what I am and who I am because you know people always say oh like what’s what’s the thing that makes you want to do this? >> Um you know but like like what’s the thing that taught you how to you know be an entrepreneur and I think it was just those years like I had

[10:27] >> it was total uncertainty and total um just like I had adaptation >> and that’s what being an entrepreneur is like literally and and and learning things that you have no idea about and uh and that’s what I had to do with English with American culture with with really everything you know so that’s what I do every pay and work and

[10:52] uh and and you know I think back to like other jobs or whatever. Sure. But like you know it’s it’s not really comparable even. >> No no nothing like running your own thing. So speaking of and you’ve had other entrepreneurial things that you’ve done, but given that experience, giving the seventh grader who was standing outside of the PE

[11:14] locker room at the girls door wondering what is happening, being rejected and not knowing anything of what they’re even saying to you. Maybe that was a >> I don’t know if I was rejected. Maybe I was accepted. I just didn’t know what they were saying. >> You don’t even know. You don’t even know. There’s some kind of magic in that

[11:29] perhaps of this. I don’t know if you’re telling me I’m a piece of crap. I can’t understand, you know, tone here. But anyway, anyway, >> how has that experience then infused into the team you have now? You were mentioning you’re like five people right now, so small small team. >> How does that work for right now? >> Yeah, I think the biggest, you know,

[11:50] we’ve been around since May 2020. So, you know, we gone through the second greatest tech crash of all time. >> Yes. Was nothing. >> Um, you know, when I started raising money, it was like two months into the crash. Mhm. >> So there was there was just a lot of >> moments where like it was it was

[12:08] difficult and I think I think just like learning how to persevere as a kid, as a teenager especially, you know, um was was instrumental for me. Um and um yeah, you know, I think I think it’s just it’s all about character building and I am who I am now because not only those experiences but my experience uh you

[12:30] know, running the company and evolving our product and surviving, you know, and that’s uh I would never give up those experiences. Um even though, you know, like >> I wouldn’t want to do it again. >> You know what I mean? Like I don’t want to do it again, but like I’m glad that I’m here on the other side of it.

[12:49] >> Yeah. H I feel like that’s the best. >> Yeah. I agree. >> You know what? Yep. And that that’s that’s where we are. And it is best. >> That’s where we are. Yeah. >> And there’s AI. Like I did not know that was going to be a thing. So uh that’s made my life so much easier, too. So I

[13:08] mean I’m I’m very grateful for for where I am right now. >> Let’s let’s talk about that then just a little bit. So AI, so how is AI helping you so much more? Let’s say >> often everyone on here is like, “Yeah, I’m doing something in AI. I’m building something in AI.” It’s like, “Yes, okay, great.” But like you as a founder not

[13:24] using your own stuff, what does it look like? >> Oh, just like personally. >> Yeah. >> Uh I mean really everything like uh like for example coding. I’m a technical founder and now my productivity has probably >> 100xed. >> Awesome. >> Um, >> it’s pretty dang good. >> Uh, that’s not exact math, but you know, way more than what it was before.

[13:53] >> Yeah. >> And there’s just a lot of implications, right? Like before it was I had to raise capital and and bring a big team without the the the market demand and and all of that, right? So now we’re just able to still move at the speed of >> a company that’s like >> four, five, six times the size.

[14:12] >> Yeah. >> And have a product that is that can actually be superior. And it just >> allows us to just like leverage so much more out of every person that we have. And I actually like to have our team size as a creative constraint, right? is, you know, well, how can we 2x our our our customer count without hiring

[14:33] new people, right? What are where are the bottlenecks really going to be? >> How do we prioritize our automation workflows and and automation, you know, roadmap? >> Uh it just forces you to think about that if you say we’re not going to hire more people and um and that was not like the dominant thought, you know. >> Yeah. uh uh you know even a couple years

[14:58] ago a couple years ago was all about raise a bunch of money hire higher higher right and you’re the the value of the founder was decided on their ability to attract talent and retain talent >> yes >> uh irregardless of profitability and growth right so >> yeah so I’m I’m feeling very like I’m feeling great about that because like I

[15:20] prefer to work with a much more lean and focused team um you know at one point we for like three times the size, right? And like >> Oh, hey. Let’s talk about that a little bit. >> So, you were Oh, okay. Tell us more. >> Yeah. So, you know, um we raised like a little bit of seed money in um at the

[15:41] top of 2022, I think, or >> higher, higher, higher. >> Um >> yeah, so that was it was the month of the Silicon Valley bank crash. I remember that very very vividly. Who doesn’t remember that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I remember exactly what I was doing. So, uh you know, so like we were fortunate enough to have

[16:03] raised a little bit of money uh in those times and and then like then it was like all right, how do I spend it? Hire people, right? So, next thing you know, we got up to like, you know, we went from like six, seven people to 15 or 14. And I was like totally really unprepared for that. Especially

[16:24] we’re just completely remote and it’s been remote since day zero because you know the company was started two two months into the into >> comic. Yeah. Yeah. >> So that was that was just the default. So you know managing that many people remotely was not really something that I was prepared for and it just created a lot of problems.

[16:43] >> Yeah. And uh you know, but last year we were able to you know like just kind of rethink everything and get and get our team size down to like you know five or six with contractors and and just like focus more on technology and workflow and automation and and everyone’s actually way happier, believe it or not.

[17:04] >> Okay. So that’s going to be my next question. You took it out of me which is is that better? Are you enjoying that more? >> Yeah. Yeah. you know, it’s better for for us, right? I don’t think that that’s the right playbook for everyone. >> Um, you know, but I think the biggest thing was to just

[17:24] >> have the self-awareness, right? Having tried >> the other way and and and failed and and all all that kind of stuff and kind of draw getting back to the drawing board and like, >> you know, what really works for me, what really works for this company. Um and you know what’s going to bring what kind of a work um or company setup is going

[17:46] to bring not only myself but everybody else on the team happiness and peace like those are my two primary KPIs >> uh in life is being happy and being peaceful. >> Happiness and peace. Oh yeah, I think that is uh I haven’t heard that yet before. So I think you’re the first happiness and peace. >> Yeah, that’s my that’s my short, medium,

[18:06] and long-term KPIs. So >> I like this. I will also comment I don’t think there’s been any damn founder who’s like you know what I can’t wait to do hire a lot of more people that sounds so no one says that right okay secondly though let’s go back to that happiness and peace and this can take us to the

[18:22] end here >> how are how are you measuring that you said KPI >> do you have a routine in which you touch base with yourself and go how am I doing fay how happy am I >> yeah I think there’s I mean that’s a very layered question. You know, I think there’s so many different pieces to this, but

[18:43] >> uh you know, when it comes to our employees like um working smart not hard, right? Having flexibility, right? I believe in work life harmony like I think that’s one of the key things, you know, autonomy and ownership. Like that’s what people have been saying is what they need, right? And >> Oh, yeah. And we have amazing amazing

[19:06] people that have been with us for for for years like our attrition rate is very low uh because we focus so much on that and and like our goal is it’s a marathon right so I think a lot of the you know everybody works seven days a week and d like it’s just not what I believe. Um, you know, I

[19:26] >> on the 996. >> Yeah. Like I just think it’s all contrived, you know. I think it’s it’s about getting done and and understanding the objective and and just like driving towards the vision. You know, what’s funny is when I started the company, the original original vision in May 2020 was a Slack analyst that never sleeps. That’s like our current Facebook

[19:49] page banner that’s been there since 2020. >> Yeah. >> And now we’re shipping that uh after building all of the infrastructure, all the foundation for five years and you know it was pre-trig like >> I didn’t know how to I had no idea how to build something like that but I was just dumb enough to just go forward and

[20:09] then I built all of Rome over five years right and it took us like five months to build the agent and now we have something that is state-of-the-art so um you know like that gives me happiness and peace, right? Is achieving a vision and achieving a goal and and and having that line of sight. That’s that’s what

[20:31] gives me happiness and peace. Yeah, >> I love that, FA. I love it. Let’s end it right there. Let’s end it right there. Happiness and peace. And also, thank you for just giving like the contrast because >> there is quite a spectrum right now on is it the 996 and we’re doing this until we die type of philosophies. Then we

[20:51] have I think people like you who are like, “Wait a second. Wait a second. Am I going to enjoy the work I do? Am I going to enjoy the people I work with? Are we going to build something great?” That’s the goal. But we’ll see. >> What would Rick Rubin say, right? Like, >> you know, I think people

[21:07] >> I take pity on the the the the people that are like, “Oh, you know, I got to work every day because that’s the right thing to do.” like clearly they’re not focusing on what matters in life, you know, and and and it’s, you know, I think I’m just at a I’m just at a point in life where it’s like, yeah, I could

[21:23] be doing this company for 20 more years, right? >> So, what’s why am I killing myself, >> right? Like, if this company isn’t making me happier, >> if it’s not bringing me peace, if it’s not bringing me fulfillment, then why am I doing this? Because, you know, we were lucky enough to not have overraised. So, and and I’m a single founder. So,

[21:44] like >> yes, >> I have control. I have agency. And like >> if it’s Yeah. My big realization was, you know, I I struggle with chronic anxiety and all of that from doing this. >> Oh, we’re ending now, FA. Like, God, we can talk about all this. Okay. Chronic anxiet. So, that Okay. This explains why peace is such a high mark.

[22:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, in in 20 2021 through 4 like >> I had uh like extreme anxiety like >> uh like daily, you know, and uh everything was uh fight or flight. Every day was fight or flight and and I was just like I don’t want to do this for >> 10 more years like why am I why am I

[22:26] doing this >> exactly >> to myself, right? Like >> it’s it’s not it’s not fulfilling. So that’s when I had to kind of rethink everything like the company is here to make people happy and and bring bring us peace like it’s not the other way around you know. >> My final comment on that is because I built BAM in the same way is no no I am

[22:50] not going to serve the company like this is not going to be of in service. I’m going to work my butt off. I’m going to do all the things. I’m going to get the most extraordinary people here, etc. But it will serve me. >> Yeah. Like what is a company anyways? It’s not even a thing. >> It’s not even a thing. It’s made up.

[23:08] Everything’s made up. >> So why why are you letting it dictate how you feel, you know? Especially as as uh founder, CEO, like when there is agency, then there’s no excuse. >> That’s the thing. That’s what just gets me face sometimes. I’m like, but you you you’re in charge, CEO. You’re the one who’s brought everybody here. >> Like be in charge.

[23:30] >> Be in charge. Oh f I cannot. This is a whole other episode of just founders are not in charge. >> I have a whole session on this because it drives me brokers. I’m like so many different ways. >> And to me it just showcases a tremendous gap in leadership and agency. Frankly, when you just raise your 17 million or

[23:50] goddamn whatever and yet you have to get a board. >> That’s why you’re not in charge by the way. >> That by the way. That’s right. That’s how you get not in charge. >> Uh, >> yeah. >> FA, we could go on and on. >> We can go on and on. Yeah. >> Here we are because we’re just here for

[24:04] a coffee. Fay Wang, thank you for being here. You’re CEO and founder of Source Medium >> Go check it out. >> AI. Happiness and peace be with you. >> And we got both. >> And good. >> And limo and party. We have all the >> Oh, good. >> All the domains. Yeah. >> Good. Smart. Thank you again. Appreciate

[24:25] it. >> All right. Thank you, Beck.